To say that the UK is not a Rape Culture?

[PatriarchyPersonified]

So I have had an argument with a lady I work with today that has ended with her calling me the "Patriarchy Personified", hence the name.

She claimed that the UK was a Rape Culture. I completely disagree and it feels like this is more creeping 'third wave' bullshit.

If you look at the definition of Rape Culture which is:

a society or environment whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalizing or trivializing sexual assault and abuse.

Then it's clear that she is wrong. I don't disagree that there are elements of UK society that I would argue probably are characterised in this way, but you can not describe the whole UK in those terms.

She was extremely unhappy to be challenged, I work with her on a weekly basis and I've got a feeling I'm not going to have heard the last of this!

I think it's your foot that's in your mouth Pengggwn

What you said was this:

By "subculture" I mean there is a significant presence of toxic male attitudes in the UK

You have already stated you see rape culture as a subculture.

So it appears that you see rape culture as a subculture of toxic male attitudes/masculinity.

If I have misinterpreted your words or your words have misrepresenred your argument please clarify.

My trans post was just intended as an example of how easy it is to put forward an anecdotal argument backed my no statistics whatsoever...

Was it? Well it completely failed on that score. It was chiefly remarkable for for the belief that feminists have an impact on trans reporting of rape. As if the police force comprised of women. Prevailing police culture is in large part responsible for the undereporting of sex offences from everyone across the board.

*StigOfThePlump

Part of the problem with the rape culture idea is that it positions rape as a primarily female problem. This is because feminists tend to only look at certain narrow definitions of the offence.*

Utter rubbish. It’s feminists who are only too well aware of all the purported ‘grey’ areas. It’s feminists who campaign vehemently to dispel rape myths.

It’s feminists who are relentlessly dissecting rape culture on this very thread.

The direct opposite of what you assert.

The thread’s moved on since then but I just wanted to say what an excellent post by Beachcomber at 08.53.

Pengwyn I think you’re tying yourself in knots with your definition of “subculture” which seems to be very different from everyone else’s (including the dictionary’s) definition. You claim not to want to minimise rape culture or women’s experiences of rape, sexual assault and harassment, but that is in fact what you are doing when you insist that rape culture is a “subculture” because rape doesn’t affect anyone in your immediate circle As others have pointed out, rape culture is about much more than “just” rape, and it is pervasive.

You seem to be trying to argue that culture doesn’t exist at all because everyone is different so all we have is subculture. Well no because the word culture exists to describe mainstream and pervasive trends in our society. You are basically arguing a variation on the OP’s “not all men” theme.

No indeed Peng you used 'toxic male attitudes' if you don't feel that is the same as 'toxic masculinity' then replace my phrase with yours, either way my point stands. However, if you do not feel this reflects your views, then explain them more clearly.

Pengwyn I think you’re tying yourself in knots with your definition of “subculture” which seems to be very different from everyone else’s (including the dictionary’s) definition. You claim not to want to minimise rape culture or women’s experiences of rape, sexual assault and harassment, but that is in fact what you are doing when you insist that rape culture is a “subculture” because rape doesn’t affect anyone in your immediate circle hmm As others have pointed out, rape culture is about much more than “just” rape, and it is pervasive.

Agreed.

you are coming across to me as assumptive and not particularly comprehending of what is written down in front of you

In all honesty, I think the problem is with you and a lack of articulacy rather than with us.

I think the very low conviction rate says it all really. Are 95% of women lying when they claim to have been raped? No, obviously not. Juries are made up of normal people, so why do they believe the alleged rapist's account over the victim's? In a he said/she said situation, why is it that the man is more likely to be believed?

Because juries are made up of normal people, who believe that because the woman may have been sending out signals by the way she was dressed that night, went to a hotel room, flirted with a man, that she somehow 'asked for it'. A rapist is seen as someone wearing a balaclava who drags a woman into the bushes, not a seemingly respectable man who a woman went out for a drink with, and claims that the woman consented to sleep with him.

That means we're living in a rape culture. Otherwise, surely it wouldn't be so hard for people to believe a woman's version of events??

The problem is that you have never been able to clarify what you actually meant, nor to give an account of your views that is either logical or coherent or rooted in the the language. (Wrt your idiosyncratic interpretation of the word 'subculture').

Well you did try peng but the further clarifications didn't work and then you just got stroppy.

StigOfThePlump

I've yet to see any convincing evidence that rapists are ordinary men who 'went a bit too far'.

Well why don’t you just pop over to the relationship board. Spend a little time on that. It is generally littered with posts from women who are regularly coerced into sex they don’t want.

Or the ‘close call’ thread. Or one of the numerous sexual harassment threads on here.

The men that won’t listen to women just keep coming don’t they?!

I thought stig’s first point about collective v individual responsibility was interesting. But it was downhill from there.

Indeed. And this stupid, insulting misogynistic idea that rapists are some kind of deviant subgroup.

All these women getting raped by people who are quite clearly different. Certainly not people who they fall in love with, go on holiday with, marry, work with, are related to, have known for years. Because no rapist was charming, charismatic, liked puppies, or did his gran’s shopping.

No. They’re all a bit weird. Or shifty. Or come out with unexpected statements that sounds dodgy.

And all we need to do is teach the next generation how to recognise them.

Job done.

Once again Stig

Summary of Carr, J.L. and VanDeusen, K.M. (2004) Risk Factors For Male Sexual Aggression on College Campuses. J. Family Violence 19(5): 279-289.

Surveys have consistently reported that college men acknowledged forced intercourse at a rate of 5-15% and college sexual aggression at a rate of 15-25% (Koss, Gidycz, and Wisniewski, 1987; Malamuth, Sockloskie, Koss, and Tanaka, 1991).

The national survey of rape conducted by Koss et al. (1987) revealed that 1 in 12 college men committed acts that met the legal definition of rape, and of those men, 84% did not consider their actions to be illegal.

In a large study of college men, 8.8% admitted rape or attempted rape (Ouimette & Riggs, 1998).

Cross-cultural studies of rape and studies of rape-prone versus rape-free campus cultures identify the following factors as contributors to sexual violence:
sex-role socialization
rape myths
lack of sanctions for abuse
male peer group support
pornography
all-male membership groups such as fraternities and sports teams
(Bem, 1974, 1981; Berkowitz, 1992; Quackenbush, 1989; Sanday, 1996; Schwartz & DeKeserdy, 1997; Warshaw & Parrot, 1991).

Using anonymous surveys, men admit to sexually aggressive acts with acquaintances or romantic partners (Koss, 1988; Lisak & Roth, 1990; Malamuth et al., 1991).

Malamuth (1981) validated a rape proclivity measure on various samples of college men and found an average of 21-35% of males indicated some likelihood of raping if they could be assured of not being caught.

Pryor (1987) reported that acceptance of rape myths, adversarial sexual beliefs, and lack of empathy were associated with greater proclivities in his sample to engage in sexual exploitation and aggression.

I've yet to see any convincing evidence that rapists are ordinary men who 'went a bit too far

Violent crimes are committed by ordinary people that 'went too far'. Why is rape exempt from this?

Here’s another thought about rape culture: when females put their heads above the parapet and express opinions that men don’t like, publicly, what do you think the go to threat is?

Yup.

Rape threats.

Looks at the on line presence of strong, particularly feminist, women and you’ll see dozens of rape threats.

If that doesn’t suggest rape culture, I’m not sure what does!

Grimbles

Violent crimes are committed by ordinary people that 'went too far'. Why is rape exempt from this?

As I mentioned earlier, RAINN's statistics show that over half of convicted rapists already have at least one criminal conviction. Most of the population do not. They also state clearly (as experts in this area) that it is a small proportion of the population that commit rape and they seem to refute the concept of rape culture.

Rape isn't like other violent crimes in that it isn't driven by anger. It's not the same as punching a drunken prick that insults your girlfriend or getting in a fight.

Stig

Conviction rates are 5% at a conservative estimate. Therefore RAINN's comments relate to a tiny and unrepresentative proportion of perpetrators.

On what basis do you claim that rape isn't driven by anger?

It's certainly a serious issue needing addressing. However, to refute that ordinary men regularly rape women is not the same as dismissing the problem.

I'd say it's more feasible to argue that ordinary women commit infanticide when facing financial or emotional problems than it is to postulate that ordinary men rape.