To say that the UK is not a Rape Culture?

[PatriarchyPersonified]

So I have had an argument with a lady I work with today that has ended with her calling me the "Patriarchy Personified", hence the name.

She claimed that the UK was a Rape Culture. I completely disagree and it feels like this is more creeping 'third wave' bullshit.

If you look at the definition of Rape Culture which is:

a society or environment whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalizing or trivializing sexual assault and abuse.

Then it's clear that she is wrong. I don't disagree that there are elements of UK society that I would argue probably are characterised in this way, but you can not describe the whole UK in those terms.

She was extremely unhappy to be challenged, I work with her on a weekly basis and I've got a feeling I'm not going to have heard the last of this!

Genghis.

Well, your description of the typical rape (where neither party realises) earlier in this thread isn't really supportive of it being a crime of passion.

But really I suppose we're wasting our time discussing it anyway. If it's everyday men who rape then how are we ever going to stop it. Must just be innate male behaviour, right?

I'm sure that most women who commit infanticide are ordinary women under intolerable pressure. Its a very rare crime compared to rape though.

What's your point?

So men don’t want to examine their own behaviour, or that of their male friends and family, so they will tie themselves in illogical knots. Heard it all before

The evidence suggests it's driven by misogynistic attitudes and belief in rape myths, not maleness per se.

This is where rape culture comes in. Messages from rape culture normalise and legitimise rape and sexual assault and make it more likely men will commit them.

If it's everyday men who rape then how are we ever going to stop it.

I have some ideas.

1. learn what consent means. Real consent ie no pressure for sex, no ‘I’ve started so I’ll finish’ no coercion at all

2. don’t see women as commodities, so don’t watch porn.

3. teach your children about consent and respect

4. stand for absolutely no jokes or banter on rape or sexual assault or sexualised talk. Pull up your friends if they do this, make it absolutely clear that it won’t be tolerated.

I’m sure there’s more but my phone keeps jumping and it’s stopping me typing.

Well, your description of the typical rape (where neither party realises) earlier in this thread isn't really supportive of it being a crime of passion.

So, you know your partner doesn't like anal, tonight you're angry with her because you feel she disrespected you in some way so tonight you insist. You've both been groomed by porn to think that men doing forceful anal without much evidence of enthusiastic consent is normal and legitimate so neither of you think this is rape. But it is.

Rape isn't like other violent crimes in that it isn't driven by anger

The first part is true. Rape isn't like other violent crimes, because there are people who will, willfully or otherwise, deny that a rape was a rape.

Anyone else really creeped out by Stig using the phrase 'crime of passion' WRT rape?

FWIW having worked with numerous rapists... There are the deviants who are compulsive and behave in an addictive pattern. Then there are men for whom rape is angry and hateful and designed to control women. Often part of DV. Then there are men who have been raised and socialized to believe that what they do isn't rape. Then there's members of a 'pack'.

As a lovely aside, lots of them use substances and porn before an attack so they have their excuse and their justification. Make no mistake, porn prepares offenders to offend.

Anyone else really creeped out by Stig using the phrase 'crime of passion' WRT rape?

I’m just creeped out by him generally, I think it’s his insistance that rape isn’t really an issue.

The OP is villified for mansplaining a concept that women claim he can have no feasible understanding of, given that he is adopting an inherently male perspective. Those same women then go on to claim to understand precisely how men have been encultured to rape, that they internalize the constant messages transmitted by a resultant rape culture that is all pervading and unavoidable. In other words they claim to know exactly how men think, and precisely how those same men action those thoughts. They claim to know in detail the thought processes that those men undertake, and the way in which they rationalize the concept of rape.

They are, of course, talking tripe. Because if the OP can't possibly understand, or indeed does not have the right to attempt to understand a female point of view on the subject of rape, then they can claim no legitimacy for their own prognostications as to how and why men think and act the way they do.

If it's everyday men who rape then how are we ever going to stop it. Must just be innate male behaviour, right?

Maybe it's culturally influenced male behaviour rather than innate?
And then maybe we can stop it by challenging and changing the aspects of culture that contribute to it?

Yes I'm creeped out by Stig, I just feel like he's way too invested in this and it feels like he's getting a kick out of winding us up about this.

If it's everyday men who rape then how are we ever going to stop it. Must just be innate male behaviour, right?

No, or all men would do it. The issue is with the level of social acceptability surrounding what men do with their sexual urges. That varies from country to country, and even within friendship groups, which again isn't in support of the idea that it's innate. Sexuality and attraction is innate, the next steps are massively variable and subject to upbringing and influence of peers.

Ruthless I would hazzard a guess that the reason for that is no man will admit to adding to a rape culture. So if a man won’t say ‘it exsists because X’ then it’s left to women to speculate on being treated the way we are.

Why do you think rape culture exsists?

Number of homicides of children under 16 year ending March 2016 - 38

Number of reported rapes - 23,851

How can you argue it's more feasible for an ordinary woman to commit infanticide than an ordinary man to commit rape? That is the most ridiculous argument I've ever read on here

Ruthlessrooster

Your point only carries so far. Yes, neither men nor women can claim to understand the thought processes and experience of the other given that they by definition cannot experience them themselves.

However, the statistics and cultural set-up that surround the issue of rape is more about analysing statistics and behavioural patterns across populations and speculating about causation and prevention based on associations.

Understanding the viewpoint of women that have been raped and acknowledging their experiences is about empathy and the importance of listening to the people who are victims living a particular situation, rather than purely making assumptions and observations as outsiders.

They aren't really comparable.

My "insistence that rape isn't a issue"?

You mean my rebuttal of the 'fact' that ordinary men are rapists? If you read my posts (what I actually said, rather than what you think I said) you'll see me acknowledge it as a big issue.

Again, why would RAINN (the world authority on the subject) refute rape culture? They have over 1000 centres and have dealt with over 2.5m cases. They must be aware that many rapes go unreported.

Why would they refute rape culture? Are RAINN rape apologists?

And lol at the surprise that a man would vehemently oppose the offensive concept that ordinary men rape women. Like they just slipped up and had a bad day.

What do RAINN explicitly say about rape culture?

You defined it yourself - "society that trivialises sexual assault and abuse", which you have done throughout this post. And then argued that such a thing doesn't exist.

I've experienced sexual abuse as a child, one rape and four serious sexual assaults. All different perpetrators. How many of those men do you think ended up in court? I'll give you a good guess.

And how dare you tell a woman that rape culture doesn't exist? Sure, it doesn't exist for you - you can't even see the way you play into it yourself. Hint: speaking to female colleagues like this is unwise.

Of course ordinary men rape women. What a bizarre statement. Husbands, boyfriends, exes, friends,acquaintances, strangers. Men with good jobs,ordinary jobs, no jobs. Tall men, short men, fat men, thin men. Ordinary men. Most of them wouldn’t even consider themselves rapists.

I’m pretty sure you’re just on a windup though. No one really thinks that rapists are all leering monsters.

It's like smoking. 20 years ago smoking was common and accepted and glamorised by advertising although everyone knew it was bad for you. 10 years ago they restricted advertising and banned it in public places, and since then it's become much less socially acceptable and far fewer people do it.

If we were to restrict the advertising for sexual violence (porn, glamorisation in various forms of media etc) and genuinely 'ban' the behaviour (i.e., by taking its investigation and prosecution a little more seriously), I think we would quickly see similar results.

And lol at the surprise that a man would vehemently oppose the offensive concept that ordinary men rape women. Like they just slipped up and had a bad day.

Why is that offensive? Why are you on the side of all men rather than all women? Since women are overwhelmingly the ones being raped? Why is it so important to you to deny that all men have a responsibility to stop this?

As for RAINN, you have taken one quote from that entire website and ran with it. A PP dealt with that a few pages ago (a lot more elequently than I could) so why don’t you go back and read that?

I'm another who doesn't understand your argument pengggwn. Perhaps you do need to articulate it more clearly rather than just insistng that everyone else intuit it? I can't fathom what it is, any more than I could guess what age the class you teach in period 5 is.

I don't by any means think rape is an innate male behaviour, stig. I very firmly believe that men are better than that, otherwise, I'd just give up. And I'm bothered by your insistence that women don't know what rape is, and I'm asking myself why you feel the need to post as you do?

ruthless, we don't need to know what men think to know that they do, in fact, rape. We can speculate about their motivation, though. It's not equivalent to a woman saying to a man "You don't see rape the way that women see rape", because...drumroll...we live in a rape culture so the dominant cultural narrative is male sexual dominance. We do know what men think about rape, because our culture is soaked in it. For all the reasons explained by beachcomber, Datun, and others above.