To say that the UK is not a Rape Culture?

[PatriarchyPersonified]

So I have had an argument with a lady I work with today that has ended with her calling me the "Patriarchy Personified", hence the name.

She claimed that the UK was a Rape Culture. I completely disagree and it feels like this is more creeping 'third wave' bullshit.

If you look at the definition of Rape Culture which is:

a society or environment whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalizing or trivializing sexual assault and abuse.

Then it's clear that she is wrong. I don't disagree that there are elements of UK society that I would argue probably are characterised in this way, but you can not describe the whole UK in those terms.

She was extremely unhappy to be challenged, I work with her on a weekly basis and I've got a feeling I'm not going to have heard the last of this!

I'm not sure how anyone can read information like this and not believe that rape culture is mainstream in the UK, tbh.

Ched Evans admitted that he had neither sought, nor received, consent. He is a free man.

While there are areas of the country where drugs or guns are more available and acceptable than others, that isn't true of rape. There are higher rates of all crimes in cities but rape can happen anywhere to anyone. It's not linked with one area more than another.

Due to porn and lads' mags and misogynist aspects in popular culture - obnoxious attitudes to rape are pervasive. You simply cannot localise it.

LeCroissant

In most debates/dialectics the person making the claim has the burden of proof.

How would we ever discuss anything if it was acceptable to make assertions and then say 'go and look it up' instead of actually demonstrating it yourself?

11 rapes an hour. That's not including children - just adults.

As we are typing now, people, mostly women, are being raped.

And your response, as a man, is to argue with a woman about language and to go on mumsnet to tell women that there isn't a rape culture.

It would be funny if it weren't so sick.

Riding

But it's not acceptable and normalised in UK society. People are disgusted by rape and rapists.

1 in 5 women aged 16 - 59 has experienced some form of sexual violence since the age of 16

These figures come from An Overview of Sexual Offending in England and Wales, the first ever joint official statistics bulletin on sexual violence released by the Ministry of Justice (MoJ), Office for National Statistics (ONS) and Home Office in January 2013.

Nobody has shown me why my point is wrong?

They have repeatedly, but you're not listening. You've got your fingers firmly stuck in your ears going "lalalalala".

So we're just supposed to accept your assertion that there's no rape culture based on no evidence at all but if we argue something we have to give evidence? (which has actually been given by the way)

Approximately 85,000 women and 12,000 men are raped in England and Wales alone every year

They are not disgusted, hence my list of celebrated rapists above.

LeCroissant

If you disagree with my point on use of language then by all means challenge me.

This conflation of my argument to the point where I'm somehow portrayed as ok with women being raped is the whole reason why I put my head above the parapet in work in the first place. That was the position I was challenging.

But it's not acceptable and normalised in UK society. People are disgusted by rape and rapists

Really? I don't think that's the case. More often than not people are falling over themselves to make excuses for rapists and sex offenders, even after the rare occasions they get convicted.

You have no idea, how could you. You're a man, you can't possibly understand what it's like to be a woman in this society. And whilst other countries may have it worse, that doesn't mean we just have to shut up and put up.

This is clearly a long and convoluted "not all men" post. The OP doesn't give a shit about the statistics, evidence and opinions you're all giving, since what he is really trying to tell you is that he is a nice guy and he doesn't rape, so therefore he must be right that there's no rape culture! Also, he hasn't been raped or assaulted or abused so clearly it's not an issue. Sadly, this is exactly the kind of prevailing attitude that allows rape culture to continue.

1 in 5 women aged 16 - 59 has experienced some form of sexual violence since the age of 16

These figures come from An Overview of Sexual Offending in England and Wales, the first ever joint official statistics bulletin on sexual violence released by the Ministry of Justice (MoJ), Office for National Statistics (ONS) and Home Office in January 2013.

i think I am just going to keep posting this STATISTIC until I break the thread

Ched Evans admitted that he had neither sought, nor received, consent. He is a free man.

Oh, but be fair, MrsTerryPratchett the woman went on to have sex again. Which obviously showed that she wasn't traumatised, so it couldn't have been rape. And the fact that her sexual history became the most important aspect of the case in no way suggests a problem with the way we view rape. At all.

On my news feed(poster promptly blocked)

OMG MADE ME LAUGH POLICE CHRISTMAS PARTY WARNING:
Police are warning all men who frequent clubs, parties and local pubs to be alert and stay cautious when offered a drink from any woman. Many females use a date rape drug on the market called ...Beer. The drug is found in liquid form and available anywhere. It comes in bottles, cans, from taps and in large "kegs".
Beer is used by female sexual predators at parties and bars to persuade their male victims to go home and have sex with them. A woman needs only to get a guy to consume a few units of Beer and then simply ask him home for no strings attached sex. Men are rendered helpless against this approach.
After several Beers, men will often succumb to the desires to perform sexual acts on horrific looking women whom they would never normally be attracted.
After drinking Beer, men often awaken with only hazy memories of exactly what happened to them the night before, often with just a vague feeling that "something bad" occurred.
At other times these unfortunate men are swindled out of their life's savings, in a familiar scam known as a "relationship". In extreme cases, the female may even be shrewd enough to entrap the unsuspecting male into a longer-term form of servitude and punishment referred to as "marriage". Men are much more susceptible to this scam after Beer is administered and sex is offered by the predatory females. Please! Forward this warning to every male you know.

Loads of likes and comments about how utterly funny this is. Rape culture? Naaah.. nothing to see here folks.

If you want proof of a rape culture Patriarchy, look in the mirror.

Now I really am out.

I shouldn't really engage, but....

In a large number of crimes, there is only one witness- the victim. If rape was suffering from the same low conviction rapes as such crimes, there would be an argument, but you'll find that in cases where people are mugged and able to point out their assailant, even if they don't have the victims wallet or any physical evidence, there's a pretty good chance of prosecution.

I spoke to a lawyer recently about domestic violence- if a husband assaults his wife in her home with no witnesses, police often won't take any further action unless she has some kind of order; yet he has seen almost identical cases where if a neighbour were to come in and assault their neighbour, with no witnesses, it would be taken to court and result in prosecution. Crimes targeting women, including rape and DV, are treated differently. There is no question on that.

If you don't live it, you don't see it most of the time. I dated someone who wasn't white many years ago, living in a city in the U.K. One night I was groped by a group of passing men on my way to meet him as I walked past a pub. He sympathised, and said that every single time he walked down that street around closing time he had racist abuse hurled at him.

I was so, so shocked- if you had asked me, I would have said our city was multicultural, and not racist. I was in a relationship with him, and I still didn't have any sense of how much and how frequently he experienced racist abuse. So yes- the UK is racist, and yes, the UK is a rape culture, because it is almost impossible to be non-white or a woman and not have experienced that culture, and arguing about it because you as a (presumably white) man haven't experienced it doesn't make you right, it literally makes you the definition of ignorant.

But it's not acceptable and normalised in UK society. People are disgusted by rape and rapists

No they're not. People don't really care. Stranger rape is demonised and everyone agrees that's not ok. But even there victim blaming goes on - why was she alone, what was she wearing, how much had she drunk, why did her 'precauctions' fail, she wasn't being careful enough etc.

But acquaintance rape and intimate rape - well that's pretty much ok, victims will be blamed, the crime minimised, excuses will be made, it wasn't really rape, how do we know she didn't consent, perhaps she's lying for revenge, publicity, attention etc.

Rape culture is about a culture in which sexual assault thrives because of sociological factors. It’s not just about how many rapes are reported/ occur.

And it’s a term coined by second wave not third wave feminists.

Google is just marvellous for this sort of informing oneself.

‘Rape culture is a sociological concept used to describe a setting in which rape is pervasive and normalized due to societal attitudes about gender and sexuality.[1][2]

Behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, slut shaming, sexual objectification, trivializing rape, denial of widespread rape, refusing to acknowledge the harm caused by some forms of sexual violence, or some combination of these.[3]’

Going by the above definition, i’d Say yes, the uk is a rape culture and you are brilliantly demonstrating it!

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture

Just

So how does that compare to other countries? Historical trends?

My earlier position which everybody ignored was that the UK has a very low rate of sexual assault compared to the rest of the world. Any sexual assaults are too many.

If you're going to categorise the UK as a Rape Culture then you have to categorise the entire world as a Rape Culture. In which case the expression no longer has any meaning.

The statistics I can find show that approximately 1 in 5 have been subject to sexual assault.
And that's reported assaults.
Is that enough for you to believe, Patriarchy?

Also, if you want to know why women think there's a rape culture in the UK, at least part of it is because even if women outright state there's a problem, some guy will always come along and say, 'No, there isnt. Source?'
Maybe try believing women for once when they talk about this stuff. We're living it. We do know what we're talking about.

www.gov.uk/government/statistics/an-overview-of-sexual-offending-in-england-and-wales

Reet

So you think rape is 'pervasive'? In the UK?