The erosion of women

[IHATEPeppaPig]

I know, I know 'not another Trans thread' BUT, I am truly interested in people's opinions on this - I was always of the thought that I don't really care how anyone expresses themselves, carry on as you wish and I do still think this to varying degrees but I am concerned about the Trans agenda moving forwards and the erosion of women and reading through Twitter I found the following articles attached to this tweet:

I'm not personally interested in breastfeeding or giving birth. But the #terf assumption that these abilities are "biologically" reserved for AFAB is just one thing: wrong.

www.nytimes.com/2017/12/02/health/uterus-transplant-baby.html

www.thestranger.com/queer-issue-2017/2017/06/21/25225867/my-first-time-breastfeeding-my-daughter

Now, I found the second article creepy - particularly where they mention that they 'got off' on breastfeeding and I'm not entirely sure how factual it actually is but it's scary that people are using this to prove how defunct 'ciswomen' (I HATE this term) are?

Trans activists seem to think they are all Magritte - saying "C'est une pipe" as if that makes it a pipe.
Art is art if an artist calls it such, etc.
Unfortunately this has always come up against cold hard logic.
A picture of a pipe is not a pipe.
A biological male is not female.
If a trans woman chooses to present themselves as a woman, that's fine and dandy. But this does not give them the right to access women's spaces or services.
It sucks for them, but there you go.
They are of course entitled to safety, health care, etc etc, but we are reaching the point now where there needs to be provision for those that are not binary, rather than shoehorning biological males into female spaces. Male, female and trans/other, if you like.
Seems like a practical solution to me.

I lose sympathy for any trans argument when the terms TERF and cis are used.

Men aren't, and can never be, women. Biological fact (those pesky chromosomes). Men can become trans women though. Why is that so hard for people to understand?

‘My reasoned argument would be; because nobody should be discriminated against for any reason and certainly not because of fear, ignorance or intolerance.’

But that’s not an argument for why a trans woman is a woman.

I fully agree that no one should be discriminated against but pointing out biological fact is not discrimination. I have no problem with trans people, I would fully support and fight for their right to wear whatever they wish, to have protection in employment and to live their lives without fear of harassment, but I don’t think someone can change sex. I think adults should be allowed to make whatever modifications to their bodies that they wish and I am deeply sympathetic to people with sex dysphoria.

I think that we should be teaching our children that boys and girls can dress and do whatever they wish and you don’t need to change sex to ‘be your true self’.

Ihatepeppa- could I point out that it's only women that have received transplanted uteruses (uteri?) that can carry a pregnancy and give birth... MTF transwomen couldn't become pregnant because they wouldn't have the hormones to support a pregnancy, or indeed grow a placenta etc.

So the idea that giving birth is solely for A FAB is correct not wrong.

Everyone is a TERF- or just doesn’t know it - yet.

Thehairthebod

Again, why not?

Because Science

Science also developed treatments which can change the physicality of a body to be more or less masculine or feminine as required. Science is responsible for the hormonal imbalance or embryonic developments which leads many people to feel trapped in the wrong body. Science is never black or white.

@PhilODox yes, I saw that and I think the person who tweeted it misrepresented the article for their own cause - 'look we don't need those pesky women'.

My reasoned argument would be; because nobody should be discriminated against for any reason and certainly not because of fear, ignorance or intolerance

Absolutely. But can you tell me of any laws we currently have that allow discrimination against trans people?

Originalfoogirl
But they still can't change sex. Surgery and hormones can change your appearance to resemble that of the opposite sex, but you remain the sex you were born as. It's cruel to teach children that they can change sex when it's not medically possible.

"Today 23:05 Originalfoogirl

OldCrone

Yup. I do. It’s not for me to say what defines gender. But if someone goes to the trouble of years of therapy both medical and emotional and risks losing everything in their life, who am I to decide they are not what they wish to be presented as."

You're talking about gender and presentation here, not sex. And ignoring that trans activists want to move to self certification where there will be no need for years of therapy or any medical treatment to be legally considered to have changed gender.

Science also developed treatments which can change the physicality of a body to be more or less masculine or feminine as required

Yup, you can have masculine women, and feminine men. Still can't change sex though.

Science is responsible for the hormonal imbalance or embryonic developments which leads many people to feel trapped in the wrong body

No one has the wrong body , they have their body. Sometimes people are very uncomfortable with their body, e.g. anorexics - the answer to that is generally not mutilating a healthy body, and taking (probably harmful) medication for the rest of their life.

Original people cannot choose their sex. They can choose not to confirm to bullshit stereotypes imposed on them as to how boys and girls should dress, act, etc.

But you can't change your sex. Please tell me you understand that?????!!!!!

Rather than arguing about trans and cis and terf and gender, here's a radical thought:
We should embrace different expressions of gender, embrace the vast variety of 'butch' women and more traditionally feminine men while accepting the obvious truth that there is no arguing with biology.

The few trans people I have personal knowledge of are just, well, people. People wanting to get on with their lives in the face of some additional challenges compared to most people.

Trans activists (IME a completely different species) are blood frightening, aggressive, shouty, unreasonable and not at all interested in debate.

Science also developed treatments which can change the physicality of a body to be more or less masculine or feminine as required. Science is responsible for the hormonal imbalance or embryonic developments which leads many people to feel trapped in the wrong body. Science is never black or white

A genetically modified carrot is still a carrot.

You can change appearances you can add to or take away from a human body.

What you can't do is completely erase the basic foundations.

original

Well yes it is possible to change physical traits to more resemble the opposite sex, no one is denying that but it’s still impossible to change sex.
You can’t go from the category of person who gets pregnant to the category of person who gets someone pregnant.
If I transitioned to a Male and I died and scientists dig up my bones they would see that I was female by my chromosomes and skeletal structure.

I don’t even know where to start with your being born in the wrong body thing.
First of all you’re equating intersex with trans which is two separate things and is a very contentious as many intersex people find this highly offensive. Many intersex activists actually argue the opposite of trans activists and they fight for the right for their bodies to be left alone.

A woman who has a bilateral mastectomy and hysterectomy is still a woman (say, like Angelina Jolie).
No amount of surgery or even hormones changes biological fact.

original a man can't become a woman. Its impossible. I can't become a pigeon even if you cover me with feathers and develop a taste for birdseed. I'm still a human in a birdsuit.

Ye gawds, internet has nothing to do with the whole trans debate and in fact the intersex community is hugely uncomfortable and upset that they are getting mixed up in the whole mess.

If a little boy chooses to play with dollies and pink glittery stuff, he is not choosing to be a girl. He is a boy choosing to play with those things.

It's depressing that people are coming out with this horseshit in the name of being 'right on'.

Gawd so sick of this discussion!
Why are people posting this stuff relentlessly.

Calling somebody a terf because they wont agree that a transwoman is a woman is aggressive rude and delusional.

Here's an explanation for those interested.

I wish I could have chosen to be a man in my early career, and not have been subject to all the prejudice and sexist behaviour I experienced.

Is supporting trans rights just calling people racist and homophobes then flouncing now?

Still no closer to finding out what a woman is.

I think I'll stick to the biological definition