The erosion of women

[IHATEPeppaPig]

I know, I know 'not another Trans thread' BUT, I am truly interested in people's opinions on this - I was always of the thought that I don't really care how anyone expresses themselves, carry on as you wish and I do still think this to varying degrees but I am concerned about the Trans agenda moving forwards and the erosion of women and reading through Twitter I found the following articles attached to this tweet:

I'm not personally interested in breastfeeding or giving birth. But the #terf assumption that these abilities are "biologically" reserved for AFAB is just one thing: wrong.

www.nytimes.com/2017/12/02/health/uterus-transplant-baby.html

www.thestranger.com/queer-issue-2017/2017/06/21/25225867/my-first-time-breastfeeding-my-daughter

Now, I found the second article creepy - particularly where they mention that they 'got off' on breastfeeding and I'm not entirely sure how factual it actually is but it's scary that people are using this to prove how defunct 'ciswomen' (I HATE this term) are?

"Oh, FFS. Trans women are a tiny minority, cis women outnumber them by several orders of magnitude: no-one's being 'eroded'. "

So it's ok if a bloke becomes world champion female weightlifter (as may very well happen tomorrow)? It's ok if a male becomes women's officer while addicted to lies that his army of ultrawoke sycophantic lobotomised acolytes swallow up with out question?

I mean how the FUCK does this person get supported by literally hundreds of people as 'our sister'?

pbs.twimg.com/media/DQPPwwYXUAAY3OQ.jpg:large

I can't begin to understand what is going through these people's heads? I feel like the small child in the Emperor's New Clothes. How have these people been so throughly brainwashed in utter, utter bollocks?

I read quite a lot of foreign-language stuff from a more traditional culture, and there is the impression that the West is fundamentally depraved, and when you read nonsense like this you can really see their point.

Toconclude, there is no similarity there at all.

What would you include in "women's rights"?

toconclude isn't really one for explanations from what I can see. More of a one-post "FFS sake you bigots" kind of gal when it comes to trans threads.

Have the people arguing that 'trans women are women' missed the actual transwoman who posted saying that they really are not women?

They aren't the first transwoman to post and say that either (though not on this thread) so will Original, toconclude and the other TRA apologist pay any heed to the people who are actually living this life?

Part of TumbleTrans' post from March 2017 re: Jenni Murray's comments.

"I think Jenni Murray has a lot of sympathy for trans women like myself and she realises that we have a hard time. However she also understands that we are biologically male and no amount of clothes, hormones, surgery, etc will change that.

I am not a woman. I am a trans woman and I have no problem with that fact being pointed out. I also have no problem with being told that my life experience is different to that of a woman.
Acknowledging that fact does not mean we think trans women are not important. Biology is not bigotry."

Yeah, this person totally isn’t trying to erase women

The equating of the trans situation with rights for gay people is an argument used by many - some of whom genuinely think they are being kind, some of whom have worked out the power of saying someone is a phobe or an ist.

But...

The current trans ideology is nothing like sexuality - someone’s sexuality does not affect anyone else at all. If I am straight and the three people standing next to me are gay, there isn’t an issue.

If, however, I’m a woman and the three people standing next to me are men (who are now women, by law) then I am statistically at higher risk.

And as for equivalence with gay rights? If you accept the TA ideology, then you sell homosexual people, especially lesbians, down the river. Lesbians are regularly being abused as transphobic for rejecting trans identifying men as partners. So equating trans rights with gay rights? Nope.

Having said all the above Dr Who didn't seem to have any problem with the transition.

toconclude

Oh, FFS. Trans women are a tiny minority, cis women outnumber them by several orders of magnitude: no-one's being 'eroded'. This reeks of the "gay marriage threatens straight marriage" tripe that the fundamentalists trot out.
Goady nonsense.

I think you’re missing something. It’s not about the number of transwomen. It’s about the legal definition of the word woman to include men.

Any man. Any predator, chancer, opportunist, voyeur, paedophile.

If self identification goes through, it will be an administrative exercise to change sex. A form off the Internet or the price of a stamp.

All those diversity quotas? You need six men and six women on the board? No problem six men, six transwomen. Job done.

(Already happened with Lily magical. 19-year-old boy who has become a LP woman’s officer and applied for the Jo Cox award which is designed to encourage women into politics).

That paedophile who hangs around the swing park or the school gates? Now identifies as a woman (looks exactly the same as he did before), and can hang around in the changing rooms during toddler swim, taking his clothes on and off.

This isn’t about a small minority. This is about any man, any time, anywhere.

And it really is breathtaking to compare this to gay marriage. When the trans ideology insists there is no such thing as homosexuality. And lesbians are bigoted transphobes if they don’t accept men with penises into their dating pool.

This reeks of the "gay marriage threatens straight marriage" tripe that the fundamentalists trot out.

Now this is what worries me about my own opinion. Am I just like my parents generation who ‘don’t like those poofs’.

But then I think not. Someone being gay doesn’t trample on anyone’s rights. Moreover you can ignore someone being gay if you really are a bigot and have issues.
It’s much harder to ignore someone with a fully working penis in your changing rooms, prisons or toilets.

Gay marriage didn’t stop straight marriage from happening. Trans women taking women’s placing in sport, job roles etc is stopping women.

Nyx1

Datun interesting. But confusing.

There are a lot of fissures in the community at the moment. Between transsexuals (truscum) and Johnny come lately transgender women, who are the ‘cross dressers of yore’.

Cross dressing develops into autogynephilia. Which gives transsexuals a bad name. Because it is a compulsive fetish that demands participation from unwittingly people. These are your aggressive ‘transwomen are women’ variety.

So transwomen like India Willoughby and Shon Faye are publically trying to make a distinction.

The problem is, it’s very difficult to tell the difference unless you are living it and get all the different nuances. One of the markers is whether they are attracted to men or women. Cross dressers/AGPs are usually straight, hence the determination to colonise the lesbian community.

They are also the most harmful to women. Because the fetish is profoundly misogynistic.

Computer: there is mounting evidence that both Trump's election and the Brexit vote were manipulated by a small, powerful, wealthy group of people. I don't think it's all that tinfoil-hat to think the same thing may be happening with the GRA - the level of venom and irrationality in the discussions are very similar. And, as with Trump/Brexit, the people behind it are racists, misogynists, etc. The motivation is more likely to be ' get rid of equal rights' than 'we are trans-friendly', though.

What also annoys me is that they have all jumped on the gay bus.
I can’t talk about having issues with trans women without us sounding like I have issues with gay people.

I know my gay friends are pissed off about this too. They feel that their very hard fought for rights are being pissed all over.

The statement "transwomen are women" is deeply misogynistic. It is anti-woman ideological propaganda.

Are the people who utter or write that statement willing to put their names to the statement "transwomen are female"?

That's all I have to say to anyone nowadays who trots out "transwomen are women" - if they won't commit to the logical conclusion of their stance which is that they hold the belief that transwomen are female then I can't take anything they say on the subject seriously. And very few people are willing to firmly say "transwomen are female" because they know that it would make them look ridiculous.

But saying transwomen are women is the same thing as saying transwomen are female because the meaning of "woman" is "adult human female". So whilst "transwomen are women" has the appearance of a less ridiculous thing to say than "transwomen are female" it is actually equally ridiculous (but a little less honest and a bit cowardly).

How people can come out with such post modernist brainwashed bullshit with a straight face I don't quite know. But they can and they do and they are bolstering fanatical extremists and extremism and that makes them dangerous. Almost without exception these people come across as do gooders who seem to think that they are supporting the rights of a hard done minority. But the so called minority that they are supporting is men. Misogynistic men. Misogynistic men are not only not a minority but they are the social group favored by the status quo. Ergo utterers of "transwomen are women" are supporters of the status quo AKA sexist society which values men above women.

It's not like gay marriage at all. That was less about validation than about the real actual legal rights that were only permitted in marriage between a man and woman. I've stood in a hospital (years ago) with a sibling whose partner of ten years was unconscious in A&E where the staff couldn't share information on their condition or allow for their making of decisions on the partners' behalf because legally they had no recognition. That was plain wrong. Discriminatory. I grew up gay myself at a time when I had to hide it because legislation still existed to restrict my acceptability at work. If a gay couple marry it also does not affect marriage for others or anyone but themselves.

What legal rights and privileges are trans people denied for being trans?

This is purely about reducing the hassle of the GRC, a legal process, and that your legal identity should be based on what you say/feel in the moment with no objective means of verifying it or commitment to it. And for the category female to absorb the category male, and the right of female sexed people to have any spaces or congregate apart from male sexed people to be removed.

No 'rights' movement in history has involved removing the legal right of another protected group where that right was a recognised means of protection. Are there sought after 'rights' actually rights at all? Is it truly discrimination at all? Should wants be legislated as well as needs? Are there any difficult precedents created by legally protecting someone's subjective feelings when. I objective verification can be made at all?

*no objective verification. Bloody iPad.

Think too, feminists haven't yet managed to get consent into sex Ed classes. Disabled people still don't have physical access as standard. Yet in about five years the TRA movement has got a government standing ready to change definitions and language overnight that has been in place since the beginning of recorded history and undoes a century of women's rights. Isn't it amazing what a minority can achieve politically when the pressure groups are almost entirely white straight able bodied males?

Also take a look at the next wave of political aims this lobby wants to achieve after the GRA. Like immediately releasing all trans prisoners and abolishing the police.

This isn’t about a small minority. This is about any man, any time, anywhere.

Precisely Datun.

@ReanimatedSGB

Thanks for this. I appreciate your concern, because I am worried about the effects of social media and manipulation too.

To that end, I went to an event called "Computational Propaganda" where some bloke from Surrey University and various academics gave a presentation into their study on how Trump won the election.

I went there with an open mind, mainly because I'm a bit dim, lack confidence and am consequently never certain of anything.

I have to say, I was unconvinced by the people giving the presentation.

For a start, they completely lacked any sense of humour. Never trust anyone who can't take a joke.

For a start, before the presentation I said to one of the researchers of the study, "These teenage Macedonian content writers must be absolute geniuses! We should hire them." She just stared at me blankly.

There may be an element of truth in it. Who knows?

Still, we're getting off topic.

To bring us back on topic, I don't think there's some committee of evil men manipulating opinion on the women's right issue. Nobody is that clever.

I like to think we are mostly independent minded, and Netbots are not our thought leaders on this issue.

Possibly some other dynamic is at play.

I may be wrong.

computer

I don’t think that men got together and planned this no, but I do think mras are jumping on it because it furthers their cause. It also fits with the alt right ‘poor menz’ theory that masculinity is in such a poor state not because of the suffocation of strict gender roles or the identity crisis of finally having to share the pie, but because men have man brains and the evil women are stopping the menz from being able to use their man brains and they are having an identity crisis because evil women’s are stealing their goddamn rightful pie!
The alt right believe that masculine =man and feminine =woman so the ‘born in the wrong body’ theory works and if you get to also tell women to shut the fuck up and that you’re going to punch them, well that’s just a Brucey Jenner Bonus.
These men are very computer savvy and have been able to manipulate google search results and things like that in the past, which might account for what happens when you google ‘women killed in 2016’.

I’m not going to pretend to fully understand what’s happening with Russian hackers but I wouldn’t be surprised if they are stirring everything up. Not because they desperately want to offer equal rights to transgender people but because it creates discord, I know that at least one tra Twitter has been traced to Russia. They have Russian bot accounts doing loads of things though and I am not even going to pretend to understand their exact motives.
I think we are going to be surprised when we realise the full extent to how much all governments and corporations are controlling our opinions through the internet when/if it ever comes to light. (Or will we even care, who knows)

For those of you doubting how far this has gone? (AFAB=assigned female at birth)

Have a look at these excerpts from Reddit - if these men think women are so stupid / inferior, why do they want to be one? If they believe they are in fact women, why do they think becoming women will fundamentally change their personalities?
transgenderreality.com/2017/10/07/stereotype-based-fears-over-hrt-side-effects/

This uterus transplant thing really disturbs me, I can’t help but feel that we could end up in a situation where women in the third world end up selling their uteruses, like what’s happened with surrogacy.

I’m not saying it’s fundamentally a bad thing but I can see the scope of it being badly abused.

Also I’ve said this in the past but we don’t understand pregnancy and birth enough to be messing with this, we don’t fully understand the function of vaginal bacteria in creating an immune system for the baby or how exactly breast milk works for example. I think we need to look at this a lot more before we start transplanting uteruses into Male bodies.

Thanks @Sentimentallentil

I like your educational answers!

I'm fairly new to this, so I don't know what an MRA is.

The only thing is, I'm not sure there really is an Alt-Right or a Russian omnipresence.

If the russians were such geniuses their economy wouldn't be tanking. They are lucky they've got oil or they'd be shagged.

I don't know anything for certain, but are you sure that outside elements are stoking this controversy?

MRA = men’s rights activists

They are women hating bullies, for clarity.

I'd be fairly happy with the possibility of uterus transplants. Maybe pregnancy would start to be taken more seriously if males got pregnant too.

Still, it's one of those really not essential procedures that would require long term immune suppression just for the sake of carrying a baby that could be carried by a surrogate.

I see it more, eventually, as growing uterus in vitro from the male cells, but I'd guess that's at least a couple of decades off.