The erosion of women

[IHATEPeppaPig]

I know, I know 'not another Trans thread' BUT, I am truly interested in people's opinions on this - I was always of the thought that I don't really care how anyone expresses themselves, carry on as you wish and I do still think this to varying degrees but I am concerned about the Trans agenda moving forwards and the erosion of women and reading through Twitter I found the following articles attached to this tweet:

I'm not personally interested in breastfeeding or giving birth. But the #terf assumption that these abilities are "biologically" reserved for AFAB is just one thing: wrong.

www.nytimes.com/2017/12/02/health/uterus-transplant-baby.html

www.thestranger.com/queer-issue-2017/2017/06/21/25225867/my-first-time-breastfeeding-my-daughter

Now, I found the second article creepy - particularly where they mention that they 'got off' on breastfeeding and I'm not entirely sure how factual it actually is but it's scary that people are using this to prove how defunct 'ciswomen' (I HATE this term) are?

@IHATEPeppaPig

Well, it's not heterosexual man that did it. We were all too busy preparing our defence against trumped up charges of Het Crime.

What should we do then?

And, I note that folk for decades have been absolutely fine with trans people identifying as their chosen gender, but damn them, those pesky trans people only went and decided they should have some rights and not be discriminated against. We can’t have that now, can we.

What rights do you think trans people should be entitled to that they are not currently entitled to? Is it 'discrimination' to say that women who have suffered horrific abuse at the hands of men should not have to share a women's refuge with people who are bigger than them, stronger than them and have a penis? Is it discrimination to say that a lesbian shouldn't have to want to fuck a trans woman with a penis? Does that apply to straight men too? Is it discrimination to say that people who are physically far bigger and stronger than women should not be allowed to participate in womens sport? I would like to hear you views on these questions.

@ReanimatedSGB

there is manipulation at work in this constant pitching of 'trans issues' as a war between feminists and trans women - the aim of the manipulation being to benefit rich, white men but I am not sure quite how.

Are you sure this isn't just one of those unforeseen consequences? Surely there is no evil baddie (Captain Caucasian!) pulling strings to make this happen. He'd have to be an absolute genius.

This is a turn for the worse that nobody anticipated. Who can predict which way angry mob will turn?

"does your daughter have the ability to not be disabled, should she choose to be? That's the point that's being made.”

No, the point being made was that a person who gets out of a wheelchair and who skis, cannot be a “disabled person”. Our daughter does all those things and she is a person with a disability. Just another example of how some people just don’t understand other groups and because of that, decide that their version of what another person is or isn’t, must be the right one."

You've misunderstood. The point was: your daughter is disabled, in whatever way is specific to her. She cannot identify as non-disabled and as a result leave her specific disabilities behind and no longer have them. Someone who is "trans-disabled" can do exactly that if they need to. They continue to have their able-bodied privilege no matter how much they identify with being disabled.

No doubt you’ll love that definition because it supports your cause.

I love that definition because it's accurate. If you wanted eggs would you buy cockerels?

Because a man who is transitioning or who transitioned can’t possibly be a woman.

Given that you still haven't provided any explanation for how this could possibly be the case, yes.

you can call it gender or sex (same thing)

Not the same thing. Sex is the body you are born with. Gender is the shit that is imposed on you because of the body you are born with.

try to tie it to anatomy all you like

Yes, that's what sex is. Do you think all those female babies in China and India are aborted because they identify as girls?

it does you no harm whatsoever if someone chooses to call themselves a woman. Your own rights are not eroded, other than your perceived right to disagree and exclude someone based on their way of life.

The harms have been spelled out throughout this thread. Nobody's excluded because of their way of life, they are excluded because they are male. That's what female only space means. If you want to do away with all sex segregated spaces then be honest and argue for that.

original you have a disabled daughter and you are making arguments that appear to legitimise transablism?

Either I am badly misreading your posts or you a massive fucking troll.

Please clarify.

Let go of your pearls and let people live their lives FFS, you will not come to harm.

Anyone's rights end where the next person's starts.
That is the problem with the new wave of transactivism, particularly random self identifying trans. They are encroaching on and endangering hard fought for women's rights.
Otherwise they can lead their lives as they want.
But, as we shouldn't take their rights, ours shouldn't be taken away either.

No, its most definitely you failing at reading comprehension, not an interpretation. There is no scientific basis for saying that a woman who's had a hysterectomy or who's infertile is not a woman. She is still of that sex - that's the definition you yourself posted.

When I was sexually assaulted (or at least, one of the many times), it was my right to ask for a woman to perform my examination. How does that work in a world where any man can declare themselves to be a woman by filling in a form and no more? Some men already go to far much more trouble than this to assault and abuse women - you don't think it will happen? How about convicted sex offenders who suddenly decide they're women, having never sought treatment or lived "as a woman", and want a transfer to women's prison - that should just be rushed through, without discussion because it's bigoted to even question it?

Frankly it's not legitimate trans people I'm worried about.

Frankly it's not legitimate trans people I'm worried about.

No. Actual trans people aren't the issue at all.

Original, I define by chromosome.

How do you define male btw?

If you wanted eggs would you buy cockerels?
Breathtaking! stealing

Gender isn’t the same as sex though, it doesn’t mean the same thing.
Sex is the biology
Gender is what society expects makes and females to do.

Sex is males produce sperm, female produce eggs.
Gender is boys like football, girls like dancing type stuff, bull shit stereotypes that need challenging because both sexes can and should be able do them.

Which is why a lot of posters are asking for those who say being female isn’t a biological reality, to define what woman means, because without biology, is it stereotypes? Women have been fighting against stereotypes for years and years.

I asked yesterday if those who felt biology didn’t make someone a male or female would ask male relatives or their partners how they know they were male, and if they mentioned biology would they tell them they are transphobic too?

Can I ask the females who say biology isn’t what make someone female, how they know they are female? It’s not a trick question. I’m genuinely interested, because without mentioning my biology, I genuinely don’t know how to tell if I’m a man or a woman.

When I was 12 I was always called a tomboy because I liked wearing jeans and t shirts, climbing trees, digging for worms, I even wanted to be a boy for a little while, wanting to be male, looking make and dressing male and doing things people said boys didn’t change people treating me based on my sex, the man who liked little girls and abused me, did so based on my sex, he couldn’t give a shit how I felt or identified. If I said, don’t rape me I’m not a girl I’m a boy he’d have still raped me.

If women face obstacles and oppression based on their biology, they need to be able to speak about that biology without being called bigots.

Original, you point about black people makes no sense. Black people are black in their own right. Likewise disabled people are disabled in their own right. They need and deserve rights to balance out the disadvantages they face living in a racist and disablist society.

Right, I am quite a hippyish nature worshipping sort, I think I'd fit in really well among Native Americans and would really like to live in their anti-pipeline protest camps and participate in their exclusive sacred prayer circles. And if these cis-native-americans don't accept me as one of their own they can fuck off and be doxxed/no-platformed (and other slurs). Is this an acceptable line of thought... why or why not?

The trans agenda would be fine if they were fighting for the rights of trans people to be trans in their own right. The problem is that the nature of reproductive biology is a priori asymmetrically loaded to the detriment of women. Even if we haven't had or can't have children, we are still perceived as having that potential and are discriminated against on that basis. What rights women have (over general human rights like voting) is to help level out these disadvantages we have from pregnancy, child rearing, caring roles which fall to us, sexual violence meted out on the basis of our SEX. A woman could technically have the bluest of blue male brains (not that such a thing exists, the extent of having male/female brains extends to having either XY or XX chromosomes in each of one's brain cells) and she would still suffer risk of discrimination, harassment, rape, familial caring duties would fall to her - one's internal sense of gender makes not a jot of difference to how society treats us, either as individuals or part of a class. Women's rights exist to counter the disadvantage that biology gives us, and the perceptions about us that are built up by male rulers & bosses on the back of that. Refusing to accept the role that biology plays in women's political status doesn't make it in any substantive sense go away, it merely strips us of our language to be able to discuss our experiences.

Trans women do not share any political overlap with women. Some issues like male violence may be contiguous, but we are not a cohesive group. Trans people deserve rights on the basis of being trans, I am 100% behind that cause. But trans-activism ignores the political struggles of an oppressed class when members of the oppressor class can claim entry to the former class, based on nebulous, subjective concepts like an ethereal feeling of identity. It smacks of supremacist behaviour.

It would be interesting to see how women define themselves as women without referring to the biology part.
I'm not sure I could, I'm me, that's all. I know I'm a woman, beyond the biological stuff there's nothing about me that makes me feel like a woman.
If put on the spot people would probably refer to gender stereotypes, but when they're not there, that doesn't mean the person isn't the sex they were born. I haven't worn a dress since I was a girl, I've never worn makeup, I don't do spa days, I don't wear high heals, my hair is short, I dress like a man. Am I a man then? No. I am me, and I happen to be a woman.
Defining what a woman is on something so subjective and unfixed is bizarre.

I realise I'm late to the party but...

Okay: trans women are women

Do fuck off dear.

And that's all I have the energy for tonight.

Signed,
A pissed off transwoman

Sorry, once you bring the whole 'this is like white people treated black people before racial equality' - no its nothing like.

It would be like that if in the 50s and 60s white people had blacked up, went into black people's schools and parts of town and said 'we're black, but you're black privileged/cis black, so you have to give us all your spaces and stop referring to your oppression and violence and poverty since obviously we're oppressed not only for being black but ALSO being trans black and suffering with that identity. It's far more dangerous and hard and upsetting for us. And you can't talk about the particular needs of how to look after your hair or skin, that has to stop in any public space, it's exclusive and triggering for us black people who were born without those things. Black skin is not part of being black, that's heteroracial normativism. We need to separate black identity from biology.'

That would be the equivalent. No one in their right mind would be ok with that. People are ok with this because deep down many people have an ingrained belief that women are second class citizens and it is right that the interests of men are served by them.

I'm beginning to suspect what the maniuplated 'war' between transwomen and feminists is really about - the erosion of women's rights and the driving of women back into the home. Those transactivists who are themselves trans (rather than lefty broflakes who have jumped happily onto the latest bandwagon offering them ways to attack women while still percieving themselves as progressive) are being revved up to make more and more unreasonable demands, so rightwing men can discredit them as well - and make absolutely sure that women can never gain more rights by transitioning to male, because that would be ridiculous...

Hmmm I’ve been thinking about it all day and do definitely feel like a woman other than my biology, but I think this is more something I’ve attached to myself when creating my identity rather than something innate, kind of like my name, I’m attached to it but it’s not part of me, itswim.
I know I feel differently about being a woman than when I was younger, when I was younger, and if I close my eyes and visualise my soul it’s sexless but more masculine than feminine (I don’t even believe in souls but I can still visualise it for some reason).
I know none of that really makes sense but it’s an interesting thought exercise to do, kindof like that Buddhist mediation where you try and find ‘you’ by asking yourself if you are parts of you.

@ReanimatedSGB

do you really think there is a committee of 'right wing men' who decided to somehow make feminists and trans people have a punch up?

Surely it's an unintended consequence?

We can't blame Putin and the Patriarchy for everything, surely.

How would they organise this? Would they have a suicide squad of men who agree to become undercover trans activists, fighting a guerrilla war with the TERFs?

Most events in history evolve through social under currents. I don't think there is any involvement of Agent Provocateurs.

Come on @SentimentalLentil, you're the voice of reason, say something

I don't really feel like anything. I just feel like me even though I'm not even sure what "me" is

I have never conformed to anything pretty much my entire life and I can't quite figure out if something's wrong with me or if something's wrong with everyone else.

Yet I've never wanted to conform either. Boxes are too restricting. I just want to be me and I don't care what others think but I do consider other people's feelings with regards to now I behave. So i won't intrude on people and i wouldn't deliberately make others uncomfortable.

It feels weird considering myself a woman but4 I don't think I'm a man either and I think I just ignore all that stuff for the most part as best I can because I don't fit with either one.

I know im.female I don't really care I'm female it just dictates my body care and clothes as far as body shape and where I get changed etc so

I sometimes experience stuff on the basis of being female and obviously that's something that happens regardless but my personal feelings as myself I don't feel anything. If that make a any sense at all

We can't blame Putin and the Patriarchy for everything, surely.

Ah, but we can try!

I am over 50 - old enough to see women's rights going backwards rather than forwards.
Frankly, who can blame girls who'd rather be on the winning team?!

I wish there was more of a public debate about autogynophilia in the whole trans conversation.
And about trans people's suicide rates, transitioning regret, lifelong medical problems relating to transitioning.

"it does you no harm whatsoever if someone chooses to call themselves a woman. Your own rights are not eroded"

“Your own rights”? Sorry, whose rights would they be? Specifically. What is the cohort you are referring to? It can’t be women’s rights. Because the cohort of women now includes men. Legally. And if the law goes through, soon to be an overnight exercise.

Kellie Maloney transitioned because he is, in old money, a cross dresser.

A man with a fetish. Who has hijacked the transsexual narrative to serve himself and his fetish. He is now a fully paid up member of the transgender class. Legitimate, sanitised and after your bathroom.

Datun interesting. But confusing.

I generally see myself as having no issue with transsexuals or transvestites...I think I said before, about 20 years ago, a gay friend told me he was uncomfortable with transvestites and I thought he was being stupid but now I wonder if he was prescient....!

Oh, FFS. Trans women are a tiny minority, cis women outnumber them by several orders of magnitude: no-one's being 'eroded'. This reeks of the "gay marriage threatens straight marriage" tripe that the fundamentalists trot out.
Goady nonsense.

This reeks of the "gay marriage threatens straight marriage" tripe that the fundamentalists trot out.

Except that nobody is forced into gay marriage.
But some vulnerable women could be forced into close and intimate unwanted contact with men. One vulnerable woman is one too many.