The erosion of women

[IHATEPeppaPig]

I know, I know 'not another Trans thread' BUT, I am truly interested in people's opinions on this - I was always of the thought that I don't really care how anyone expresses themselves, carry on as you wish and I do still think this to varying degrees but I am concerned about the Trans agenda moving forwards and the erosion of women and reading through Twitter I found the following articles attached to this tweet:

I'm not personally interested in breastfeeding or giving birth. But the #terf assumption that these abilities are "biologically" reserved for AFAB is just one thing: wrong.

www.nytimes.com/2017/12/02/health/uterus-transplant-baby.html

www.thestranger.com/queer-issue-2017/2017/06/21/25225867/my-first-time-breastfeeding-my-daughter

Now, I found the second article creepy - particularly where they mention that they 'got off' on breastfeeding and I'm not entirely sure how factual it actually is but it's scary that people are using this to prove how defunct 'ciswomen' (I HATE this term) are?

Thanks @Sentimentallentil

(I've just been to the park, if you're wondering what the delay was. I wasn't being rude)

Another question. Why would Frank want to be a woman when that's quite a scary leap into the unknown.

Imagine getting over to the other side, then finding out you hated it. But you've burned your bridges (yes, that is a euphemism).

Also, you'd have to go out with men, and he was a geezer-ish sort of bloke. (I'm not being flippant.)

Who advised him it would be a bowl of cherries, that's what I want to know.

The same with kids now. We have no idea what we're doing. I think.

My older sister made me wear her dresses when we were close (to be fair I was mesmerised by her and I was six at the time). I must admit I quite liked it.

But I didn't give up on playing football and I didn't want to transition. I suppose these days there'd be gender clinic salesman checking what we said on Facebook and putting his foot through the door.

I've always assumed Kellie Maloney was a homophobic gay man rather than APG
Don't APGs prefer to keep the penis and identify as lesbians

AGP. I have no idea what that autocorrected to

Holy shit [shocked] I thought Kelly's features looked a lot more feminine than Frank's, but assumed it was just good make up!

whoops, Kellie*

Not sure that they did go ahead with genital surgery though due to medical complications after the facial surgery?

metro.co.uk/2014/11/17/kellie-maloney-left-devastated-after-doctors-call-off-sex-change-operation-4951408/

Oh, ignore that last post of mine - I didn't cross reference the dates.

@MrLovebucket

I don't understand how Kellie looks pretty good.

What was stopping Frank from going to the hairdresser?

You don't need an operation in order to get permission to look after yourself.

That's what I don't get.

I don't understand how Kellie looks pretty good.

Multiple facial surgeries, depilation and female hormones.

What was stopping Frank from going to the hairdresser?

Mainly his lack of hair. Kellie is wigged up.

@MrLovebucket

Ah, thanks

Everyone seems to be a few DVDs ahead of me in this box set

To be honest I'd forgotten about Kellie until this thread. Did some googling out of curiosity as I didn't think they had the full set of surgeries. I just remember Kellie looking like Frank doing a bad drag act at the beginning of their transitioning.

computer

I don’t know why he would want to transition, I imagine because he thought he would be happier as a woman.
This would indicate to me that he was probably quite unhappy as a man but like I say I don’t know him so it’s pure speculation.

It’s not true that he would have to start sleeping with men, many men transition and sleep with women. This has caused a lot of tension in the lesbian community as lesbians who refuse to sleep with someone with a penis (or used to have a penis) have been called transphobic.
Many people think this is very homophobic and some lesbians are upset that there’s nowhere they can go anymore where men aren’t there.

I think that lots of unhappy people fixate on a physical reason why they are unhappy and become obsessed with if that was fixed then they’d be happy, and then when it’s fixed they aren’t. Especially people with body dysphoria.
Not saying that this is true of all trans people and I’m sure that lots of trans people transition and that does make them happy but I agree with you, we don’t really know what we’re doing and professionals need to be able to talk about this openly without being shot down for being transphobic.

I particularly worry about young girls who feel unhappy with their physical body and read about their symptoms online and self diagnose as being trans. Lots of teenage girls feel deeply uncomfortable with their developing bodies and this used to manifest as eating disorders but now it’s presenting as a sharp increase in trans.
A dr who wanted to study this phenomenon got his application denied from a university as apparently studying detransitioning in teenage girls is ‘unpolitically correct’ and they feared a backlash.

Why won't someone answer the 'what is a woman question'?

Because just like the call for “reasoned arguments” If any definition is given which you don’t like (I.e any which does not support your argument) you will say it is wrong.

You want the official definition? It is an adult female. So, let’s define female “of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes”. No doubt you’ll love that definition because it supports your cause. Because a man who is transitioning or who transitioned can’t possibly be a woman. Unfortunately for you, that means there are a whole lot of some out there who don’t meet that criteria either. You really want to tell a woman who has had a mastectomy and a hysterectomy that she isn’t a woman any more.

And that’s the reason I argued “semantics” because you can call it gender or sex (same thing) and try to tie it to anatomy all you like, the reality is, it does you no harm whatsoever if someone chooses to call themselves a woman. Your own rights are not eroded, other than your perceived right to disagree and exclude someone based on their way of life.

original your point is moot - I am of the sex that can bear offspring, even if I'm no longer able to do so

*does your daughter have the ability to not be disabled, should she choose to be? That's the point that's being made.”

No, the point being made was that a person who gets out of a wheelchair and who skis, cannot be a “disabled person”. Our daughter does all those things and she is a person with a disability. Just another example of how some people just don’t understand other groups and because of that, decide that their version of what another person is or isn’t, must be the right one.

"You want the official definition? It is an adult female. So, let’s define female “of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes”. "

Yes, those ARE the dictionary definitions of the words Woman and Female. It helps to remember them on these threads, so thanks for that.

"that means there are a whole lot of some out there who don’t meet that criteria either. You really want to tell a woman who has had a mastectomy and a hysterectomy that she isn’t a woman any more."

NO. That is YOU totally misunderstanding those definitions.

Female isn't defined as a person who has made or must continue to make eggs/babies. It is defined as the person who is OF the sex that CAN make eggs or bear young. A woman can have ovaries or not. She may be infertile for a variety of reasons including accident, menopause, or hysterectomy. She is still "OF the sex that CAN make eggs or bear young" and she is not and never will be "OF the sex that CAN make sperm".

Breasts or mastectomies have nothing to do with these definitions so I can only assume that you are making that part up.

it does you no harm whatsoever if someone chooses to call themselves a woman

It does if the accompaniment to that is to call me a cis woman.

Your own rights are not eroded, other than your perceived right to disagree and exclude someone based on their way of life

I play rugby. If transwomen start playing against us we absolutely are having our rights to play safely. And that's just one very small micro example

If any definition is given which you don’t like (I.e any which does not support your argument) you will say it is wrong.

You do realise it is us you are defining here?

Mastectomy* and hysterectomy are female experiences.

*I realise men can get breast cancer and require mastectomy but a) they comprise less than 1% of all breast cancer and b) they are left with a scarred chest rather than loss of a functioning organ.

I'm post-menopause (also a female experience) so I no longer produce ova. I'm still of the sex that produces ova.

No man produces ova.

@Originalfoogirl well actually I think this thread has proved beyond a doubt that women's rights can and are being eroded.

original

Sex and gender are not the same thing, sex is your biological function, gender is a social construct of roles and behaviours assigned to your sex.

A female is the category of human who can get pregnant,
A Male is the category or human that can get someone pregnant.
Just because you haven’t or are unable to do this specific functions doesn’t mean you don’t belong to that category.

Women need to have specific rights in regards to this biological function such as maternity laws, in order for these to work we need to be able to name the class of people they belong to, how could someone ever take their employer to court for sex discrimination for unfair dismissal for getting pregnant if the employer can argue it’s not sex discrimination because men can get pregnant too?

This DOES affect women.

Tammy

Because you have decided that is how you want to interpret that definition. Because it suits your argument to do so. Your interpretation is no more correct than mine. As I said, it’s all semantics.

And, I note that folk for decades have been absolutely fine with trans people identifying as their chosen gender, but damn them, those pesky trans people only went and decided they should have some rights and not be discriminated against. We can’t have that now, can we.

Final point (because I just can’t read any more tripe about just how inherently dangerous trans people are) - all of these arguments were made about why black people should have fewer rights than white people. (They are so dangerous to us, savages, look at this press story about one black person who done a bad thing). And about why gay people shouldn’t be allowed rights (it’s just not how nature intended, biology is all about the male and female). And about how women shouldn’t have the same rights to welfare and employment and the vote (what about the children, how they will suffer, women just don’t know their minds, we can’t have them in pubs with men, it’s just too risky)

Let go of your pearls and let people live their lives FFS, you will not come to harm.

original you aren't making any sense.

Women who are unable to bear children for whatever reason are still of the sex who can produce eggs, even if they cannot themselves do that. If you are an adult human male, you are not of the sex who can do this, therefore you are not a woman.

‘No, the point being made was that a person who gets out of a wheelchair and who skis, cannot be a “disabled person”. ‘

I think that was a badly worded comment and it’s not a good analogy but I don’t think that was what the pp was trying to say.
They weren’t saying you can’t be disabled if you ski or walk up stairs they were saying it’s offensive for a fully able bodied person to pretend to be physically disabled just because they like it.

"it does you no harm whatsoever if someone chooses to call themselves a woman. Your own rights are not eroded"

So women's rights are not eroded when they have to deal with a bloke in a dress in a Rape Crisis centre? Or have to change in front of one in the communal changing room of a gym or swimming pool?

Are women's rights not eroded when a mediocre male sportsperson decides they want to be considered a woman and becomes #1 in that field against women competitors?

One of the club venues I go to fairly often has mens' toilets, women's toilets and unisex toilets (three separate rooms). Everyone seems to be entirely happy with that arrangement. It really does make me think that there is manipulation at work in this constant pitching of 'trans issues' as a war between feminists and trans women - the aim of the manipulation being to benefit rich, white men but I am not sure quite how.