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The erosion of women

524 replies

IHATEPeppaPig · 03/12/2017 22:14

I know, I know 'not another Trans thread' BUT, I am truly interested in people's opinions on this - I was always of the thought that I don't really care how anyone expresses themselves, carry on as you wish and I do still think this to varying degrees but I am concerned about the Trans agenda moving forwards and the erosion of women and reading through Twitter I found the following articles attached to this tweet:

I'm not personally interested in breastfeeding or giving birth. But the #terf assumption that these abilities are "biologically" reserved for AFAB is just one thing: wrong.

www.nytimes.com/2017/12/02/health/uterus-transplant-baby.html

www.thestranger.com/queer-issue-2017/2017/06/21/25225867/my-first-time-breastfeeding-my-daughter

Now, I found the second article creepy - particularly where they mention that they 'got off' on breastfeeding and I'm not entirely sure how factual it actually is but it's scary that people are using this to prove how defunct 'ciswomen' (I HATE this term) are?

OP posts:
Maryz · 04/12/2017 13:24

Nyx, I get that. Transwomen want to (and are being allowed to) take over women's spaces. So to have women's spaces in the true sense of the word we are going to have to provide "people with female bodies" spaces. Oh no, that won't work. Maybe "people born with no Y chromosome" spaces.

If the current laws go ahead, and the trans lobby has their way, that will be the only way that women will have any chance of safety, sporting success, privacy etc etc.

It's a ridiculous suggestion, obviously. Made tongue in cheek - but as this goes on it seems to me that it might be the inevitable end result.

Lweji · 04/12/2017 13:28

It's not an easy discussion, but it is one that should be had.

OhThisbloodyComputer · 04/12/2017 13:30

Thank you, @SmileEachDay

I like to think people will come to their senses eventually.

In Polynesian cultures it's common for the second son in a family to dress as a female. They are celebrated, but not regarded as XX women (for want of a better term)

How come the Polynesians are way ahead of us?

(I was a second son. But I'm not discussing this any further)

Nyx1 · 04/12/2017 13:32

Ohthis "Also, why advise other posters what their response should be?"

I've found it really helpful when other posters have tipped me off about things like this.

Nyx1 · 04/12/2017 13:33

Maryz "It's a ridiculous suggestion, obviously. Made tongue in cheek "

ah, if you don't "know" a poster it can be really hard to tell Blush

SmileEachDay · 04/12/2017 13:34

[[https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2013/07/16/faafafine-boys-raised-be-girls ]]

ohthis They don’t sound that progressive to me...

Goatgirly · 04/12/2017 13:35

A small and vocal minority of transwomen want to be regarded as biologically female though, not just be celebrated for who they are.
As far as I'm concerned anyone can dress as they want, call themselves what they want, live as they want, but this should not be allowed to encroach on women's rights, which are there for the safety of women.
The Polynesians are only way ahead because clearly gender isn't an issue over there, different culture and all that. In the meantime we are stuck in a patriarchal society that wants to keep people in their neat pink and blue boxes, the current trans issues are cementing that, not blowing hose boxes open, as we're falsely told. The current trans agenda plays right into gender bullshit.

TammySwansonTwo · 04/12/2017 13:42

Funnily enough, most of the women I know have always been very pro trans rights and supportive of an individual's right to transition. What's led people away from this level of acceptance is the regressive stance of TRAs and some of the more extreme and ridiculous demands to comply with very specific beliefs or be branded a TERF. And as someone who has been on the extreme and damaging drugs being branded as harmless and reversible "puberty blockers" I have other concerns there.

When you start reading about the cotton ceiling, a trans MMA fighter almost killing a female MMA fighter, those encouraging young children to essentially sterilise themselves and submit to irreversible surgery because their interests don't fit their assigned gender or the idea that any man could feasibly access women's spaces by filling in a form and the complete silencing of debate, it would be irresponsible not to be concerned about this.

Maryz · 04/12/2017 13:42

Sorry Nyx. I'm sort of at the stage of "there is no way we can win this; should we be looking outside the box for a radical alternative solution?".

OhThisbloodyComputer · 04/12/2017 13:44

@goatgirly I'm afraid I got it wrong about the Polynesians. I was basing my opinion on one colour supplement article. It turns out it's a bit more complicated than that

On that score...

Thank you for putting me straight on that one @SmileEachDay

(Well not straight. You can't say that these days etc etc)

Nyx1 · 04/12/2017 13:52

Maryz - I think we can win this but we need to get the attention of more people. I know how difficult that is with all the doxxing etc of course.

Goatgirly · 04/12/2017 14:00

Oh ok OhThis, I see what you're doing.
Tbh you're coming across as another man telling women what they should be feeling about certain issues.
Any woman currently saying they're not happy with the way things are going are silenced and threatened. It's not really that complicated, but some people do seem to find it tricky and present non arguments and silencing tactics.

Elendon · 04/12/2017 14:17

it would be irresponsible not to be concerned about this.

Absolutely. And I agree with your post as well. TammySwansonTwo

OhThisbloodyComputer · 04/12/2017 14:18

@Goatgirly

Sorry, that wasn't the intention. I was only asking questions. I don't know how I feel. i'm certainly not going to tell you how you should feel.

Sentimentallentil · 04/12/2017 14:26

computer

You are confused because it is confusing.
Quite often I’ve noticed that people who come on here to shout transphobe at us are often saying the same things as us they just haven’t got the memo that those beliefs make them a transphobe now.

MissBax · 04/12/2017 14:40

Absolutely Sentimental
I admit that I've been well and truly schooled by you wonderful MN lot. A year ago I was all "I don't see what the big deal is" re the trans movement currently. But thankfully I've learnt alot from here and now am one of the ones being labeled 'transphobe'. It'd be funny if it wasn't so frightening

BeyondAssignation · 04/12/2017 14:44

Yy sentimental

Sex dysphoria is a mental illness = transphobic now
Any sort of surgery, hormone or diagnosis required = transphobic now
Lesbians attracted to females = transphobic now
Women have biological issues in common = transphobic now
"Born in the wrong body" = transphobic now
Not born the sex they feel = transphobic now
"Transsexual" or "transvestite" = transphobic now (even when used by someone to describe themselves, ffs!)

OhThisbloodyComputer · 04/12/2017 15:03

Thanks @Sentimentallentil

I'm Questo-Phobic now

I dare not ask any questions.

But you seem quite trustworthy so I'll try you

Why was boxing promotor Frank Maloney (my one 'before and after' point of reference I'm afraid) diagnosed as a woman in a man's body? Frank (as was) was quite an aggressive gobby bloke, seemingly by choice. He didn't have to be that way. many men are quietly spoken, without sacrificing their masculinity.

That's what I don't get. Why was he convinced he was a woman? If he was a woman, what drove him/her to act like such as sunday football twat? There can't have been a feminine foundation to his thought processes. or could there? How does it work?

Also, women are a different planet from us (males) so how on earth can we speculate what it feels like to be a woman?

Surely people should be encouraged to dress how they like. But encouraging them to think they are women is a bit wrong isn't it? What was the doctor thinking? removing the penis and grafting on some other secondary characteristics is more cosmetic surgery, surely. Or is it? I don't know. Help me out please

Also, why is everyone so partisan about this topic?

Surely this is an area where we should have doubts.

Only fools and fanatics are certain of their opinion (as a philosopher once said)

I've already been reported for being 'goady' so I'll shut up now

Sentimentallentil · 04/12/2017 15:25

Why was boxing promotor Frank Maloney (my one 'before and after' point of reference I'm afraid) diagnosed as a woman in a man's body? Frank (as was) was quite an aggressive gobby bloke, seemingly by choice. He didn't have to be that way. many men are quietly spoken, without sacrificing their masculinity.

I have no idea of the ins and outs of the specific case but I do know who you are talking about.
I don't know why exactly he felt he had to transition but I do know that if you are brought up in a society where there are very strict gender rules then you can feel very trapped by them. The hyper masculine world of boxing must be very oppressive and its not exactly a world where gender diversity is celebrated. I think gender strict norms are very harmful to men, resulting in some men being traumatised and having mental health problems due to the fact that they have to carry the burden of being strong and arent able to communicate when they are in pain for fear of losing status.
When gender norms are so rigidly enforced I can see how it must be confusing when elements of your personality don't sit with what you perceive to be the traits that go along with your sex. It might be easier to be a woman than to admit you are a homosexual, or even just a feminine man.
Myranda Yardley who is a tran woman describes themselves as a 'refugee from masculinity' and I understand what they mean, masculinity might be the dominant gender but fucking hell its shit being a man too. They also describe mtt as thinking they have a 'get out of male free card' which I think is very interesting, this idea that you can leave masculinity and be reborn as a woman. I would imagine this boxing promoter acted like a gobby twat when they presented as a man because he thought thats what he was supposed to do but was actually very unhappy about it.

Surely people should be encouraged to dress how they like. But encouraging them to think they are women is a bit wrong isn't it? What was the doctor thinking? removing the penis and grafting on some other secondary characteristics is more cosmetic surgery, surely. Or is it? I don't know. Help me out please

I totally agree, people should be allowed to be whoever they want, fuck whichever consenting adult they want, dress how they want and not be told they have the wrong body.
I actually have no problem with people have body modifications that make them happy but this doesn't change their sex.

People are partisan about this because both sides see it as defending their rights. Women think that allowing males into female spaces erodes hard fought for rights and trans people think that women not recognising them as women goes against their rights.

Maryz · 04/12/2017 15:28

Computer, those are all relevant questions, but asking them makes you transphobic. Especially the bit about encouraging, doctors and cosmetic surgery Shock - expressing views like yours is literal violence against transwomen.

The only allowed non-transphobic answer is: He says he feels like a woman, therefore he can say he's a woman, therefore he IS absolutely 100% a woman and exactly the same as every other woman in the world. Except slightly more hard-done-by because cis-women [bleurgh] have cis-privilege.

We are not allowed to have doubts. If a woman expressed any of the first 2/3rds of your post, they are labelled a TERF. They are banned from speaking, outed on twitter, reported as transphobic to their employers and some have lost their jobs.

It's not possible to not take a side here; we are not allowed to.

SaturdayNightAtTheMovies · 04/12/2017 15:30

I've asked it before, and I'll ask it again, why do we not hear of transmen making similar demands?

sentimentallentil · 04/12/2017 15:30

Also, women are a different planet from us (males) so how on earth can we speculate what it feels like to be a woman?

Ha, I don't agree we're from a different planet but I do agree that we can't know what it feels like too be the other and its very upsetting when biological males basically tell women to shut the fuck up because they know what being a woman is, despite the fact that by doing so they are really showing their male socialisation, because seriously is there anything more masculine than that?

Again I'm going to paraphrase Myranda Yardley, who says its the difference between being an immigrant and a coloniser.

See we love genuine questions, and we love people putting across the other side, we just don't like people shouting transphobe then running away.

PencilsInSpace · 04/12/2017 15:59

why is everyone so partisan about this topic?

Most of us started out as wholehearted trans 'allies'. Many of us have trans friends who we've known for years. We've seen them struggle and go through an incredibly painful and difficult process to change their bodies to something they could live with. We've shared toilets with transwomen, on an 'honour' system, for decades, safe in the knowledge that we could challenge the presence of a male person if they were intimidating, behaving inappropriately or otherwise making us feel uncomfortable. Safe in the knowledge that where it really matters - hospital wards, prisons, DV shelters, women only support groups etc. - we were protected by the clause in the equality act that states it is permissible to exclude transwomen as a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

Over the last 10-15 years, things have changed radically.

Trans no longer means what it did. The definition is now so wide as to comfortably encompass anybody at all who wants to make something of it. 'Transition' is no longer much of a thing (for adults at least). These days only a small minority of transwomen go through that painful, body-changing process our friends underwent. You now don't even need to bother with hormones, changing your style of dress or having a shave. You could 'transition' right here and now, computer, just by declaring 'I'm a woman' and everybody would be obliged to respect that. You don't need to identify as a woman either, you could choose any of the bajillionty sparkly new non-binary genders if you prefer.

At the same time, children and young people are identifying as trans at an ever increasing rate. The graph above shows the number of referrals by year to the Tavistock children's gender identity clinic. Around 70% of these referrals are now females - something we have never seen before except in tiny numbers. Unlike adults, children are transitioning medically and surgically. They are prescribed off-label cancer medication to halt puberty. This is presented as a harmless, completely reversible option to allow the young person breathing space. Except that the drugs have known serious side effects such that adult women (who are sometimes prescribed these for endometriosis) are only allowed to stay on them for 6 months. Also, alarmingly, almost all children who are prescribed puberty blockers go on to cross-sex hormones. This contrasts with earlier studies showing an 80% desistance rate for gender dysphoric children as they went through natural puberty and came out the other side, usually as gay men or lesbians. Once on cross sex hormones, having never been through natural puberty, these children will effectively become infertile, as well as undergoing irreversible changes to their bodies. There are a growing number of detransitioners, especially among females who transition, but nobody's allowed to talk about it.

Organisations are becoming more and more cautious about making use of the equality act exception so there are fewer and fewer women only spaces. Trans activist organisations are writing the guidelines for schools, youth organisations and workplaces and only have regard for their own interests, not those of women and girls, or of children generally. Now, to top it all off, we have the latest proposals to make gender recognition a simple matter of filling out a form.

And women are not allowed to ask questions about any of this or raise concerns about our own rights or the rights of children. We are greeted with threats of doxxing or rape or 'die in a fire'. We are no platformed and hounded out of jobs. We are told there is #nodebate.

That's why I'm 'partisan'. I'd love a reasonable, polite debate. I'd love to be able to work out some middle ground so we can all just muddle along like we used to. That takes willing from both 'sides' though.

The erosion of women
Sentimentallentil · 04/12/2017 16:09

Well said pencil

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 04/12/2017 16:20

Why don't TRAs lobby for trans spaces, sports, prisons, positions, awards? It seems like the obvious solution.

Well yes quite. This is the solution everyone I speak to seems to see will fit everyones needs.

The only 'argument' I have seen against it (if you can even call it an argument given how weak it is..) is that this is 'othering' to transwomen. But...transwomen ARE other to women. So not sure how this argument against really works. Maybe someone, ANYONE can help me here? As I will continue to think that this is clearly the answer without any serious argument against it.

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