The erosion of women

[IHATEPeppaPig]

I know, I know 'not another Trans thread' BUT, I am truly interested in people's opinions on this - I was always of the thought that I don't really care how anyone expresses themselves, carry on as you wish and I do still think this to varying degrees but I am concerned about the Trans agenda moving forwards and the erosion of women and reading through Twitter I found the following articles attached to this tweet:

I'm not personally interested in breastfeeding or giving birth. But the #terf assumption that these abilities are "biologically" reserved for AFAB is just one thing: wrong.

www.nytimes.com/2017/12/02/health/uterus-transplant-baby.html

www.thestranger.com/queer-issue-2017/2017/06/21/25225867/my-first-time-breastfeeding-my-daughter

Now, I found the second article creepy - particularly where they mention that they 'got off' on breastfeeding and I'm not entirely sure how factual it actually is but it's scary that people are using this to prove how defunct 'ciswomen' (I HATE this term) are?

@WateryBintDistributingSwords I have a genuine desire for real conversation. To me, it appears that the proposed changes in the law will endanger not only women and girls, but also the genuinely dysphoric transexuals who have been quietly sharing our spaces without any problem for decades.

What do you think of the proposed legal changes? Can you see any risks at all, or can you explain why you don't see any risks, if any man at all can self-declare as a woman and gain access to all women's spaces with impunity?

I've enountered men in dresses in public loos, reapplying their makeup. I have no way of knowing what their personal situations are. I have never felt intimidated by any of them. I have always hoped that they did not perceive any 'hostility' from me because I have certainly never felt any.

But as soon as men start shouting and perpetuating violence to ensure that all men have the right to access women only spaces because they want to and for no other reason, then I feel I do have reason to fear that. If they did not wish me and other women any ill, why would they go about it in such an aggressive and violent manner?

[[https://fairplayforwomen.com/domestic-violence-some-men ]]

This sums up the violence issue....

*want opinions? Okay: trans women are women.

And women (I assume you mean cis women, which is relevant to this post) are not being 'eroded'. We'll be fine.*

So let me get this straight. Trans women are women but you still need to ask if we’re talking about ‘cis’ women? If trans women are women, then women are also trans women and we are all the same.

Or, does it only work one way? Trans women are women who are more than welcome to talk about women’s issues; but women are just cis women and have no right to talk about trans women.

Even though trans women are women.

Maybe it's time to get rid of all sex/gender segregation, no more women/men's sports, scholarships, changing rooms, support systems etc etc. After all, there is no sense in gender separation; separation was meant to be on sex and it no longer is.

So get rid of the lot and start again.

People can then organise safe spaces for themselves. People born with female bodies are very good at this; they see the need and are prepared to work hard to get them. They would be up and running in next to no time.

People who feel female but don't have female bodies can do the same for themselves. Let them put in the effort, stop jumping on the spaces carved out by the people with female bodies.

@Maryz wouldn't work. I bet the majority of funding streams wouldn't allow women (as in physically born female) only projects to apply so it would be a struggle to get anywhere near where we are now.

Why don't TRAs lobby for trans spaces, sports, prisons, positions, awards? It seems like the obvious solution.

This is what my 16 year old son thinks. User

A question:

Can we identify as transwomen? I'd love to engage a trans group and talk to them about my experience of being a transwoman.

Can we identify as transwomen?

Pretty sure we can identify as whatever we want.
As born women though we will be less likely to be taken seriously.
Discussing your experience of being a transwoman sounds like a good plan though.

I know it's unworkable, mirime, but it seems like there is no alternative.

Give it a couple of years and all sports scholarships and sport teams will be transwomen. All political spaces will be transwomen. All spokespersons on women's matters will be transwomen.

There will be no women's spaces, no funding at all for anything for women. So we will be starting again anyway.

Elendon - your son sounds very sensible.

But perhaps Giles is right, and for TRAs the most important concern is actually validation and not safety - if so, this is NOT justification for the erosion of women-only spaces.

I'm happy to refer to a transwoman as 'she/her' and by her chosen name - that is validation.

I agree with MaryZ This will mean starting over again or complete submission.

Shut the wee women up keep pacified.

Can we identify as transwomen?

No you're not allowed. It's suddenly important that words have meanings after all

Nothing sounds more 'we have always been at war with Eastasia' as 'transwomen are women' to be fair!

Maryz, I can't see how starting again would work.

the whole point is that transwomen want access to women's spaces. They don't want to design their own spaces or have anything other than access to women's spaces which currently exist.

Bananas, stay and debate then, tell us why biology is bollocks, tell us how to define women?
I have only read about feelings, and girl clothes and femininity, which doesn't come any near reasoned debate, so please, inform me.

They will only accept validation if we ALL agree that trans women are women. Including men.

I'm not very trusting though that will be still be enough.

My son and I agree that it's all a bit cultist. And there is no satisfying the demands of those who are members of a cult.

I'm confused about the whole thing.

I'm waiting for the dust to settle and an easy explanation to emerge, so I can mansplain patronisingly to people in full confidence.

However, there seems to be no clear majority, and no obvious standard has emerged, so there are no safe bet.

In the meantime, I am hedging my bets on this emotional currency.

I've bought some options in Women's futures, but I'm holding stock on Gender Fluidity.

Consolidated Patriarchal Mindsets are a boring but reliable stock to hold in an uncertain market.

OhThisbloodyComputer

you AGAIN. (NB - posters on either side, really, don't waste your time).

Also you cannot simply square the circle when you argue on the one hand that everything is open for debate but strongly campaign for no debate.

It's not logic.

banana

Please report any transphobia or personal attacks you see to HQ, they actually take a very firm line about this and I know I myself have reported transhphobic comments and had them removed.

ohthis I’d fling the women’s futures stock right under the nearest bus. It’s what everyone else seems to be doing.

banana why are you assuming there will be no discussion? I repeatedly- here and elsewhere- ask for reasoned debate and repeatedly get told I’m a bigot. Talk to me about why you think transwomen are women.

I'm happy to refer to a transwoman as 'she/her' and by her chosen name - that is validation.

Me too. I really don't care what people want to call themselves.

Transphobia:
"irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against transgender or transsexual people"

Being worried about what trans movements mean to women's rights is not irrational.
Not wanting to share a shower with a man (with male genitals) doesn't make me androphobe, and it shouldn't mean that I'm transphobe either.

The same for saying that transwomen do not know what it is like to be a woman. Because saying that a black person doesn't know what it feels like to be white doesn't make me racist.

@Nyx1

I am making a serious point. In a light hearted way.

If you can't handle that, I don't know why you need to seek support from others and gang up on me.

The point I was making was that it's very confusing because, up until recently, it was Ok to be anything as long as you weren't a man.

I don't want to be horrible to people who identify with being feminine, but I think surgery cannot change your chromosomes and they dictate who you are.

I never understood why the boxing promotor, Frank Maloney, said he identified as a woman as he was one of the most aggressive men in a very blokeish business. He didn't seem to display any feminine characteristics (although that's an arbitrary term anyway)

When he came out, nobody ever questioned this.

Fair play to him/her, but I think some of the assumptions madeabout women and men were a bit rum.

But in the ensuing media coverage, nobody dare question this. And now you're hoping to gang up on me for questioning the morality of the mob.

That's what I meant by my jokey reference to the emotional currency markets.

Please could you be a bit please finger pointy?

Also, why advise other posters what their response should be? I like to think they are all intelligent enough to make up their own minds.

Oh sorry, was I being goady there?