The erosion of women

[IHATEPeppaPig]

I know, I know 'not another Trans thread' BUT, I am truly interested in people's opinions on this - I was always of the thought that I don't really care how anyone expresses themselves, carry on as you wish and I do still think this to varying degrees but I am concerned about the Trans agenda moving forwards and the erosion of women and reading through Twitter I found the following articles attached to this tweet:

I'm not personally interested in breastfeeding or giving birth. But the #terf assumption that these abilities are "biologically" reserved for AFAB is just one thing: wrong.

www.nytimes.com/2017/12/02/health/uterus-transplant-baby.html

www.thestranger.com/queer-issue-2017/2017/06/21/25225867/my-first-time-breastfeeding-my-daughter

Now, I found the second article creepy - particularly where they mention that they 'got off' on breastfeeding and I'm not entirely sure how factual it actually is but it's scary that people are using this to prove how defunct 'ciswomen' (I HATE this term) are?

goals

From what I can gather it’s because it’s not validating that trans women are women. The way they see it is there’s no need for a third space because they are women so they can use the women’s spaces.

For me the logical solution would be for men sort out male violence so there’d be no need for sex segregated spaces.
Trans women do face violence, but it’s not from feminists, it’s from men.

Thanks @pencil and @sentimental and @maryz

You don't absolutely HAVE to be gobby to be man.

I think that's a myth. Once I has my trousers off, in the gents of an unfamiliar pub, and was blow drying a urine stain.

A bloke burst through the door. Complete stranger. Women would imagine his reaction would be to sneer, but he just said to me, "I know mate, we've all done it"

I don't think Frank Maloney had to come out with that baloney. In a boxing gym, for example, boxers are quite sympathetic to each other. Almost tender. (You have to help each other with a lot of stuff, like wrapping the bandages around you hands and holding people's feet when they do sit ups.)

So he didn't have to act the big gobby wannabe.

It reminds me of Ben Elton when he tried to be a geezer. He adopted such an over the top persona it was obvious he was an over compensating mockney.

So, in short, I think you can be a sympathetic character and remain male.

People who say “trans women are women” can never then define what a woman is. Ever. Not one.

TERF is usually thrown at any woman who express a female centered opinion or whose opinion is out of line with gender ideology. And of course, diversity of opinion is bad and liberals will silence you immediately with the term TERF to justify your harrassment, beating, and raping. All in the name of progressiveness

When he came out, nobody ever questioned this.

Ohh but they did. I am an admin on a fairly busy with and when Frank was in celebrity BB (so the whole thing was publicized a bit more) our forum exploded with people who were absolutely baffled by the whole thing. But we had to delete anyone who was anything less than fully accepting, and ban people who persisted in 'misgendering'. We had taken our mod policy from transactivists and threats, basically. I am sure many places did too given how quick you will be deleted in many places for refusing to accept that males are female and vice versa. Its only recently our moderation stance has changed. A few places seem to be testing the water with finally allowing gender critical views to be heard too.

In real life, people were even more baffled. if you got them away from other people. Infront of others they would toe the line and make out it was all fine and how obvious Frank has 'always been a woman' and such. It was most bizarre.

I genuinely do feel that the majority public opinion is 'gender critical' overall. I mean, I know 4 people is not exactly representative or anything, but even all the transwomen I know are fully gender critical and accept that they are not the same as women, nor do they want to be as they have no wish to deny their own history or journey. They disagree strongly with 'self ID' as they see it as making a bit of a joke out of their own struggles.

So yeah. I don't think the 'public' is as accepting as it appears they are at all. I just think many do not actually know whats going on at all and many more disagree with it all but dare not say for fear of being branded a bigot. Of course among these people, some may genuinely believe that 'transwomen are women'. But oddly enough, they apparently believe it but refuse to actually define what a woman is, if not an adult human female. I find that really weird.

I suppose I must be TERF.

*fairly busy site

Obviously

Of course you don’t have to be a gobby shit to be Male.

Surely you don’t think that’s what we believe?

^Once I has my trousers off, in the gents of an unfamiliar pub, and was blow drying a urine stain.

A bloke burst through the door. Complete stranger. Women would imagine his reaction would be to sneer, but he just said to me, "I know mate, we've all done it"

I don’t understand this? Are we supposed to be surprised because a man was once compassionate to you and didn’t take the piss?

I don’t think you’ve grasped what we believe at all. I’m not suprised men are nice to each other, I have met men you know, I’m even married to one.

Some men are gobby shits. As are some women. But anyone who is a gobby shit as a male will more than likely continue to be a gobby shit as a transfemale. Changing "gender" doesn't change personality. At least it shouldn't if, as they insist, they were always the new gender. They should be the same person. Only wearing different clothes. Obviously.

As I type these posts I'm reading what I'm saying and wondering how the fuck we got to this

Going off on a slight tangent: I live in the Middle East. A majority of Arab women here are covered, and only unveil in private or in front of close family.
They unveil in public loos, and in changing rooms. Over here, it isn't a problem as it would be unheard of for a man to decide he was a woman and walk into a female-only space.
But in the UK this could be deeply disturbing to observant women if there are obvious TIMs deciding to enter female space. I assume it would also have an impact on some Christian sects and Orthodox Jews too.

I actually think you’re arguing the same points as us but in different words and thinking you’ve got a different point of view.

Our point is that a man can be as feminine as he likes and remain Male as it’s not feminity that makes a man but his Sex organs.
Sex is between the legs not between the ears.

But you asked why he might want to transition even though he had appeared to be such a masculine man and I gave you my hypothesis.

I don't blame you OP. The attempted erosion of women is real, the whole stance is that we must be labelled, replaced, 2nd class to trans activists who live and breathe their socialised male privilege in their entitled arrogance that women must shut up and be talked about, talked at, and not heard.

They can fuck off with all that, and their stupid 'cis' label which I'm disinterested in and will never apply to myself.

They'll only STFU when male hetero privilege whose gaze they really want and are attempting to climb over women to get it, put them in their place. Which I believe will happen sooner or later, as their desperation to be the most important, will never work.

They pick on women as we're the easiest to pick on, that's all. I only know 2 transwomen in real life, and they're pissed off with activists shit stirring and pretending all transwomen think like them.

Have penis? Not woman. & no amount of pretending, or the shouts of dick-entranced women who set themselves up as their champions and enablers attempting to browbeat other women into silence, will change that. Tough luck. End of story.

Dormouse

I don’t think that is a tangent, it’s important to remember why we have sex segregated places and one of the reason is so some women don’t have to drop out of public life further isolating them.

dick-entranced women who set themselves up as their champions and enablers

So any woman who doesn't agree with you clearly is doing it because we are overcome by our lust for cock? Jesus, that's some surprising misogyny from a group allegedly defending women.

Also Frank Maloney is a textbook autogynephile.

Much like Caitlyn Jenner actually.

No, please don't get upset @Sentimentallentil

I don’t understand this? Are we supposed to be surprised because a man was once compassionate to you and didn’t take the piss?

I appreciate that not all women think like this. But it seems to be the assumption a lot of the time.

Not you obviously. And I apologise if you thought that. Not my intention at all!

But there does often seem to be some mad logic applied, which is based on the foundation that men spend all day saying "Cor, how big's your dick mate? 'ere, I bet you don't like rapey porn do you? What are you, a girl? eh?".

Whereas I only feel like that in the morning, and when I'm with a whoop of other baboons and feel obliged to exude Toxi-Masc.

Sorry if my tone seemed a bit wrong.

Computer, I don't know whether you are doing this on purpose

You have got entirely the wrong end of the stick. None of us care how "manly" a man is. None of us care what he says, does or thinks. Or how he dresses or what he calls himself. We don't give a shit, he's still a man.

What I mean by that is: no matter how nice, compassionate or feminine he is, he can't just announce he's a woman and be a woman.

There is a definition between being a woman (or man) and being feminine (or masculine).

A masculine woman is still a woman.

A feminine man is still a man.

Whether a man is masculine or feminine has no bearing on whether or not (not in my view) he can become a woman

Indeed, Maryz. And male privilege doesn't just vanish because someone starts taking hormones or dressing "as a woman" either (not really sure what dressing as a woman means since I haven't worn a skirt for years).

The few trans women I know are mostly aghast at this idea that they should be considered the same as women. In their opinion that's as erasing for them as it is for women - their struggles and ours are not the same. It's like a few white activists saying they are now black and declaring that everyone should state they are colourblind to race, and if you question this you're a racist. It's utterly backwards. That would never fly though - look at Dolezal.

For the record, I am not saying that being a woman is the same as being BME but can you imagine any other scenario where someone from aprivileged group can insist that they're really part of the directly opposed oppressed group and everyone plays along? I mean, able bodied people insisting you refer to them as disabled and that they deserve to access special accommodations for disabled people, would anyone ever be okay with this? It's the power dynamics between the genders that enables them to get away with this, and to believe they can get away with it.

@Maryz

Sorry, no offence intended.

Someone mentioned that men are under pressure to be a particular stereotype and I don't think thats true.

I don't think anyone would have thought the worse of (sorry to keep harping on about this case but it's the only one I know) Frank Maloney if he one day decided not to act lairy.

I don't think we are under that much pressure to conform, that was my simple point. Although I do think women are allowed a much wider emotional spectrum.

You don't get told to Woman Up as a stock response, or "grow some fallopians.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is I don't understand all this stuff and I want you to explain it to me.

But no acronyms. Or phrases I've never heard of

Yes Tammy, as goatgirly said above: "if black people are told categorically that there's no such thing as racism, because blacked up white people say so, and to shut up, you're being a racist scumbag to even considering that there's a biological difference between black people and white people with makeup on to look black."

Another example: I can't buy a caravan, announce I'm a traveller and demanding to take a space on a halting site, displacing a traveller family to do so.

computer

I’m not upset, I’m just not clear on what the point you’re trying to make is.

Feminists are used to being accused of being man haters or thinking all men are rapists etc when in reality we can see how gender sterotypes are shit for men too (a different kind of shit than how it is for women), it would be much better if we could be judged on our individuality. Unfortunately we haven’t got to that place yet and in order to dismantle it we need to be able to talk about it and recognise it.

Toxic masculinity doesn’t mean all males are toxic, it means that when a culture becomes too rigid with its gender roles it creates a toxic environment as masculinity is suffocating and most people are not purely masculine or feminine but a mixture of them both.
I think there is a problem for men, look at the murder stats and the suicide rates, but I also don’t think it’s womens place to sort it out nor is it the fault of women.

Of course he can stop acting like a dick . He doesn't have to announce he's a woman to stop acting like a dick. Lots of men aren't complete dicks.

Are we really suggesting that "any man who isn't a dick must actually be a woman". That's just stupid.