The erosion of women

[IHATEPeppaPig]

I know, I know 'not another Trans thread' BUT, I am truly interested in people's opinions on this - I was always of the thought that I don't really care how anyone expresses themselves, carry on as you wish and I do still think this to varying degrees but I am concerned about the Trans agenda moving forwards and the erosion of women and reading through Twitter I found the following articles attached to this tweet:

I'm not personally interested in breastfeeding or giving birth. But the #terf assumption that these abilities are "biologically" reserved for AFAB is just one thing: wrong.

www.nytimes.com/2017/12/02/health/uterus-transplant-baby.html

www.thestranger.com/queer-issue-2017/2017/06/21/25225867/my-first-time-breastfeeding-my-daughter

Now, I found the second article creepy - particularly where they mention that they 'got off' on breastfeeding and I'm not entirely sure how factual it actually is but it's scary that people are using this to prove how defunct 'ciswomen' (I HATE this term) are?

"women in single sex mental health wards"

I know a women who became terrified of men as part of her mh problem, she was committed and terrified even of her perfectly nice husband. She had to share a ward with a transwoman. Because their mh problem clearly ranked higher than hers

I really don't understand the throwing around of the word 'transphobia'. It's just utterly ridiculous.
Transwomen are transwomen - obviously. They may feel like women, they may look like women, they may think they're women. But they simply aren't. It really isn't offensive, it's just a fact.
Noone here is transphobic, and I'm sure we'll all agree that transpeople are entitled to live free from exploitation, fear, abuse, discrimination, and violence.
They absolutely deserve their own areas, changing rooms, safe spaces etc.
And just as we all agree that, why don't we all agree that women deserve their own spaces too?

This. All of this.

We often get posters "popping in" to say "I disagree but I won't tell you why".

Is it a secret? It isn't lending any strength to any side of the debate if it is!

Lol, yes all those leading "questions" really display a genuine desire for real conversation. Convincing stuff! Just ignore me. I just one message as a note to any trans women who may be reading this thread that I hope they're okay. I'm not stopping you speaking or discussing this issue, am I? If that offends or angers you, fine by me.

Leading questions? Omfg

It's basic biology.

Actual facts

How is that Leading?

There's no point engaging in these discussions (because no one is listening, for a start)

For what it's worth, I have somewhat changed my opinion from reading threads like this.
Maybe not in the direction you wanted, though.

And, yes, good luck to all transwomen. To transmen too.
And to women.
It's nice if we can ALL be respected and our specific issues recognised.

If we take out the fact that I think much of the focus of TRAs is about silencing, dimishing and eliminating real women and nothing at all to do with promoting the rights and protection of transwomen, then I still think we need to look at why so many people (men included, it would seem) who feel that men make spaces unsafe for anyone who does not 'identify' with the 'traditional' and less attractive aspects of masculinity.

I personally feel it is has more to do with cutting women down to size and bringing us down a peg or two, but I am advised by my son that this makes me a 'terf' so I'll avoid stating that...

But why on earth do so many people perceive men to be such a pervasive risk to their safety?

Watery - my question is how you feel about a very real situation.

It's already happening and it will get worse when the upcoming change in law allows any man to identify as trans with no effort. Any man.

This makes vulnerable women even more vulnerable. that's what I think. What are your thoughts?

www.thesun.co.uk/fabulous/5047833/the-gender-debate-will-end-of-women-only-spaces-do-more-harm-than-good/#comments

I'm another believer in TIM being male and not women. I'm going to right for the rights of women not to be erased with every breath in my body.

They pop in to make their points and that's final. END OF.

No discussion here, move along now.

Like someone who would say

'Why didn't you ask me?' when it comes to doing the housework.

'Why should I have to ask you?'

'Exactly, end of discussion.'

And I would be wary of new posters. Twitter has recently woken up to the fact that mumsnet is allowing gender critical debate. And as all debate on this issue must be silenced I am guessing there will be few new visitors to the site.

Watery

Will you be ok with a self identifying woman (full male sex organs) sharing the gym/swimming pool showers with you?

I'm not going to take on board in a feminist way issues faced by trans women. They can sort that out for themselves. After all, they are claiming to be women!

Saturday "but I am advised by my son that this makes me a 'terf' so I'll avoid stating that"

I said in the Bluestocking - mostly drinking alone in there at the mo - whatever insults they hurl at us, we claim them (Mark said this in the film "Pride"). So say, yes, I'm a TERF.

re your point on men, it's because so many women have been attacked or abused by men.

Elendon "I'm not going to take on board in a feminist way issues faced by trans women. They can sort that out for themselves. After all, they are claiming to be women!"

quite.

JeReviens

Trans women are not women.

Cis women is not even a thing - since women are women. The end

Exactly so.

re your point on men, it's because so many women have been attacked or abused by men.

Oh I get that completely. I think that when we have men asking to access women only safe spaces because they need protection from men, then really the finger needs to be pointed at men for their behaviour and not women for being wary of said men.

Transwomen are transwomen. Women are women.

Fully supportive of transwomen leading the lives they choose to, free from harrassment and discrimination. In order to achieve this I would suggest separate 3rd spaces for trans-identifying people. This would respect the fears and concerns of trans people, whilst also respecting the fears and concerns of women.

Not supportive of women-only spaces being open to any male who self identifies as 'female' - opportunists will be as able as genuine transsexuals to enter female-only spaces without question. Trans identifying people need a separate third space.

Not supportive of women's sport including transwomen, as ultimately this will lead to 'women's sport' no longer existing (see Iranian women's football team). Again, they need a third category.

Not supportive of self-identifying transwomen being transferred to women's prisons. Ian Huntley in a woman's prison poses a serious safe-guarding issue. Again, a third space is needed.

Not supportive of self-identifying transwomen having access to women's refuges, again for safe-guarding reasons. A third space is needed.

Not supportive of transwomen taking awards/positions created for women. Transwomen will not suffer the negative impact of childbirth and childcare on their careers. They will undoubtedly suffer discrimination in other areas of their lives BUT they should not be eligible for positions or awards created for women. Again, they should have their own awards and positions.

Why don't TRAs lobby for trans spaces, sports, prisons, positions, awards? It seems like the obvious solution.

That's the point that kinda proves this is nothing to do with safety and all to do with validation.

Or they'd answer why they would push for a law that allows the very men they are apparently trying to escape from, to enter the female spaces to come find them there instead.

Saturday, sorry, you said this and I didn't realise you were joking?

"But why on earth do so many people perceive men to be such a pervasive risk to their safety?"

user1471448556

Yup to all of those.

The problem is that the TRAs aren't about campaigning for equal rights for transpeople, they're about replacing real women with transwomen.

[[https://t.co/PsJA6tfZQi ]]

This is a useful, factual source of information on this issue.

Nyx I think the point I was clumsily trying to make was that either

men are perceived as a risk to personal, social, financial and sexual safety by both women and men who do not identify with traditional discourses of masculinity

or

it's not about that and it's misogyny; it's about TRAs diminishing and eliminating women

If it's the former, then really it's the behaviour of men that needs to be the focus of this rather than the willingness of all women to accept as our own anyone who doesn't identify with that particular narrow discourse of masculinity, if it's the latter, we shouldn't be pandering to it.

Either way, I don't see it as the responsibility of women to solve this.

I wonder why they never seem to demand that straight men fancy them and their penises? WOuldn't dare! Just target the women, every time.

Obviously if a man who doesn't present as overtly masculine goes in the men's loos, the other men will beat him up/insult him/make him uncomfortable. Obviously - and there's nothing we can or should do about that. So we leave the men alone in the toilets of violence, and demand that women shove up, move over, and let non-women in their toilets. And if they won't, and the TIM does have a bad time in the men's loos, that's the women's fault, not the men who make it so.

At every level, male bad behaviour (or fear of) is left unchallenged, and women must accommodate. You might think it's men who are more likely to commit violence against TIMs - you might think of scenarios like drunken men shouting, abusing, hurting the TIMs, and agree that that's awful.

But no - the 'violence' we need to worry about it women saying they're women and that's why they have periods. It's women saying, you can't come in here with your dick. It's women who name themselves and their issues - they are the ones who are literally actually committing violence against trans people.

Fucking bullshit.

Women should not be subject to laws that remove our fought for and much needed protections because some men don't like the way other men behave towards them.