The erosion of women

[IHATEPeppaPig]

I know, I know 'not another Trans thread' BUT, I am truly interested in people's opinions on this - I was always of the thought that I don't really care how anyone expresses themselves, carry on as you wish and I do still think this to varying degrees but I am concerned about the Trans agenda moving forwards and the erosion of women and reading through Twitter I found the following articles attached to this tweet:

I'm not personally interested in breastfeeding or giving birth. But the #terf assumption that these abilities are "biologically" reserved for AFAB is just one thing: wrong.

www.nytimes.com/2017/12/02/health/uterus-transplant-baby.html

www.thestranger.com/queer-issue-2017/2017/06/21/25225867/my-first-time-breastfeeding-my-daughter

Now, I found the second article creepy - particularly where they mention that they 'got off' on breastfeeding and I'm not entirely sure how factual it actually is but it's scary that people are using this to prove how defunct 'ciswomen' (I HATE this term) are?

Fric.

Actually women's officer is most likely to be best for a woman who despite not having a PhD has a better understanding of being a woman than a man.

It's not hard. Women's officers do not have to be academic, but they (as a minimum) should be women.

*No jobs should be dedicated to women..... That's for losers"

Really? Rape counsellor? Womens refuge staff? Womens office?

The motive for segregating by gender is that anyone can take on and perform any gender that suits them. So there is one toilet for the feminine acting and one for the masculine acting. This ignores the massive majority of biological women who mostly don't perform femininity most of the time, and that there is a huge spectrum of gender expression by biological women. It also ignores that trans men really don't for the most part want to use the mens' toilets. So it makes it basically mens toilets and everyone's toilets.

If we segregate by sex then that is an immoveable boundary. Please see the comments of the new TIM women's officer that they want to use their role to see more of a separation between womanhood and biology, which is apparently a less 'transphobic view'. Basically biological women need to shut up about and conceal anything that a TIM cannot appropriate because its exclusionary. There is no interest of any kind in even tolerating or accepting any aspect of womanhood that affects biological females. That should be erased.

These are not the actions of people who identify as women, these are the actions of people who hate women. You can only agree with this stuff if you yourself believe that women are second class citizens whose correct place is to be inferior to men.

@fricative

A man with decades of experience and a PhD in the subject of xxx is likely to do a better job that someone from Southampton Institute with no experience, a vagina and a third in Women's Studies.

What about a trans identifying 19 year old male who has an ambition to be the 'first trans MP'? Would that person do a better job? In the current climate it's worth thinking about the motivation behind that appointment.

I have asked before and will continue to ask...

If there are obvious, tangible sex differences between male and female brains - with transgender peoples brains matching those of the sex they identify with - why are brain scans not used for diagnosis?

A transwoman has no more insight into what it is like to be a woman than I have an insight into what it is to be a transwoman.

A transwoman cannot speak for me or my experience any more than I would claim to be able to speak for theirs.

And there is no amount of 'understanding' or PhD that is going to change that.

'I still remember campaigns about gay men being child-rapists'

With all due respect, there was a point in the 1970s and into the 1980s, where certain groups of men were very vocal in advocating that children were capable of consenting to sexual relationships and their sexuality should not be suppressed.

At the same time, homosexual men were quite rightly advocating that the age of consent for same-sex male relationships (21) should be lowered to the age of consent for same-sex female relationships (16).

The former group took advantage of the latter groups' legitimate campaign to make their demands seem more reasonable. Given that there demands were to be able to have sex with children, and access children for that purpose, and that there are laws which say that you cannot consent under 16, I think child-rape is a reasonable description of what they were looking for.

Such groups were not representative of all gay men, but given that the Paedophile Information Exchange, for example, was an off-shoot of the Scottish Minorities group (a gay activist organisation) in the first instance, and there were other similar organisations in other countries, one can see where such sensationalist headlines came from. There were quite rightly campaigns to have PIE closed down.

Nonetheless, as far as I am aware, feminists have always campaigned to raise awareness of and prevent child abuse generally, not solely and only by gay men. If you have any references to the contrary, then I would be glad to see them.

Two of my brothers had to have their foreskins removed due to medical issues. Neither of them believe in any way it is the same as FGM.

Hope that helps.

A man with decades of experience and a PhD in the subject of xxx is likely to do a better job that someone from Southampton Institute with no experience, a vagina and a third in Women's Studies

Well, no, that is nonsense. It totally depends on the job, and the experience outside of academia.

If someone has a PhD in engineering, and the job is as a rape counsellor, and the woman (you know, a person with a vagina is a woman) from Southhampton also did a peer counselling training course and a lot of voluntary work in women's refuges, then she would be the better candidate. It is not rocket science, you are being completely obtuse and it is hard to conclude that you are not trying to wind people up here.

I have no idea what it feels like to be:
a man
black
90 years old
disabled
any other woman

I only know what it feels like to have my vagina, my breasts (as different as they have been throughout my life), my thighs, my periods and my single pregnancy. Not how it feels to be in any other woman's position.
So, I doubt any man can know how it feels like to be like any woman.

I understand that some people may not identify with the body they have and have a different image in their heads.
And I can understand that some people don't identify with the stereotypes for their gender, but they'd be better off fighting those stereotypes, not pandering to them.

I wonder whether, as a heterosexual and biological female, I can access the LGBT foundation or similar.

As far as biology is concerned I have a question. If a girl gets puberty blockers then starts taking Testosterone in order to transition to a boy (FTM) and subsequently develops liver failure that requires a transplant, would a male liver be transplanted or a female? What would stand a better chance of succeeding? Are livers 'male' or 'female'? I think this might become an issue in years to come when the long term effects of taking hormones everyday and not experiencing the puberty of your sex can start to be measured and assessed.

but they'd be better off fighting those stereotypes

Quite, Lweji - and that is what gender critical feminists have been trying to achieve, but we're now in a situation where if any suggestion is made that there's nothing wrong with being gender non conforming, that you don't need to 'change sex' we are accused of being TERFS.

Just another woman popping into say that not everyone on MN agrees with the majority tone on these threads. There's no point engaging in these discussions (because no one is listening, for a start) but I don't think trans women are a threat or eroding women or dangerous so if any trans women are reading, good luck to all of you xx

You don't think that a law which will be easily exploitable by people who aren't trans is a threat?

Watery

I'm listening. The lack of open debate is one of the problems with this whole issue.

How do you feel about women in single sex mental health wards (a much higher proportion than average of whom have been sexually assaulted) potentially having to share intimate space with men? Because that is the way legislation is going.

Watery Well, I haven't read any comments on here that are anti-trans anyway, but how would you respond to the reports by the BPS that rapists have self identified as women gain access to female prisons? Is that not dangerous?

Trans people should be protected under their own identity. There is no need to remove the identify of women in order to facilitate it.

From what I see, it is the people espousing your position who are failing to engage in any genuine discussion.

but I don't think trans women are a threat or eroding women or dangerous so if any trans women are reading, good luck to all of you

So you're fine with a 19 year old with a penis bullying a woman out of her job as a womans officer and then taking that job and announcing that they don't think woman needs are very important?
You're cool with that and think its a great thing for women and good luck?

If you are not listening then why are you engaging?

Watery

It's becoming apparent on this thread that what posters mean by 'transphobia' and 'the tone of the thread' is that they are uncomfortable with facts being talked about and questioning of the ideology.

It doesn't matter if those facts are right and those questions should logically be asked; just anything at all but unconditional support is nasty and abusive. There was a comment in the Times this weekend that an article was transphobic and offensive, and many people trying to explain that stating facts is not offensive.

To refuse to pretend or lie is not offensive or unkind.

@fricative

You're being wilfully obtuse.

Let me spell it out for you

I'm fairly certain you're a man. So,assuming you're a man and assuming you're straight, as someone who believes transwomen are just as much women as actual women, would you therefore be willing to have sex with a transwoman? And if not, why not? You think they're a woman, even if they have the physical characteristics of a man.

This is the argument many transwomen are using to attack lesbians who won't sleep with them. Strangely, the argument doesn't seem to extend to straight men who do not appear to be eager to sleep with transwomen.

I'm very sorry to hear about your father, however you yourself have turned this into a game of top trumps, and all you are doing is proving my point. My biology means I am currently suffering from an illness which is specific to women. Sadly your father died from an illness which is specific to men. I'm sure you and your family would have been horrified if elements of care specific to prostate cancer patients had come under attack from women claiming they were men and deserved equal status. As a PP said, how are we to discuss specific issues, medical and otherwise, which affect one sex and not the other, when to do so may cause screeches of "terf" and accusations of transphobia?

I couldn't care less if a man wants to dress as a woman. He can do what he wants. But it doesn't make him a woman. He is still a man and he will never experience certain things that a woman will experience. Same as I'll never experience certain things that my husband and other men will. All I personally would like is some acknowledgement of that, rather than the pseudo science that TRA types float around, about their female brains and how they really can breastfeed.

Also as for privilege, if I'm honest I'm not a fan of its usage as the catchphrase of 2017. It's very Tumblr SJW and the meaning is lost. All this totting up of privilege points and comparing it to the next person. I notice it's the trans activists who have contributed to its overuse and in that case, I will happily call them out on their own "privilege" in having reached adulthood as men in this society

Just another woman popping into say that not everyone on MN agrees with the majority tone on these threads. There's no point engaging in these discussions

With respect, there’s no point “popping in” unless you’re prepared to say what your views are. Otherwise you reinforce the view that there is no counter-argument to be had.

You know it's a shame nobody told Malala to simply identify as male! That could have solved all of her issues!

Also, the Boko Haram victims, why didn't they just self-identify as men?

I don't think trans women are a threat or eroding women

What do you base this opinion on?

Part of the problem is: what is a trans woman?
You have from people who have had sex organ change operations to people simply identifying as women.
There are differences between them and shouldn't be all put in the same bag.

Perhaps Watery you feel your voice needs to be heard and listened to?

No more than anyone else. You are not special in this respect.