In not wanting to be a feminist

[tireddotcom72]

I know I’m not alone as have had this conversation with friends but does anyone else feel PC stuff is just going too far now. The gender stuff is confusing me - I’m female always have been always will be and perfectly happy that way I don’t want to identify whatever that means with anything else and change my mind or whatever the gender fluid thing is ( that really confuses me) I’m mum to a daughter - who when younger was a pink, princess, Barbie loving frilly dress wearing child. I loved her wearing pretty dresses and wanting pretty hair. I’ve always worked in female dominated jobs - through choice no one forced me from being little I wanted to be cabin crew, my parents would have preferred me to be a solicitor, accountant or doctor like my siblings but supported my decision to go into the beauty industry because that’s what I was happy doing.
When I was younger I was whistled at in the street, had my bum pinched in nightclubs etc I wasn’t offended or outraged.

I don’t want to live in a genderless world, I don’t want my teenage daughter being in gender neutral changing rooms, I don’t even like being referred to as someone’s partner I’m quite happy being called his girlfriend.

I don’t want to offend anyone with my probably old fashioned views - I’m not even old! But I’m getting fed up of constantly hearing and reading about what I should think and believe, i mean the latest fuss about Sleeping beauty ..... what will pc brigade want to ban next?

PLUS - there is no basis for ‘women are needy’ although if you have statistics for that I’d be happy to read them. But men ARE more violent than women ‘98% (a huge margin, obviously, I’m sure you don’t need that pointed out to you) of violent crimes are committed BY MEN. That is a fact. Not 98% of men are violent - but the vast majority of violent crimes are committed by men. I don’t see how you can argue that men are not responsible for that. Even the nice ones (and we agree we know them) have a responsibility to change this. My husband (a nice man) agrees with me. Does yours?

Christ, what an absurd opening post.

YANBU

You're in the majority. Women (and men) are abandoning the label in their droves and it's because of the trite argument used by quite a few posters; 'do you believe in equality of the sexes? Then you're a feminist.'

The reason people are abandoning it and that an ever increasing number of both sexes see it as an insult isn't because of some patriarchal conspiracy in the media (yes, I've heard someone say that before!), it's because as people leave feminism as they feel it is unnecessary, the ones who remain are the militant radicals.

The dictionary definition and what people experience first hand of feminism are worlds apart.

You're in the majority. Women (and men) are abandoning the label in their droves and it's because of the trite argument used by quite a few posters; 'do you believe in equality of the sexes? Then you're a feminist.'
The reason people are abandoning it and that an ever increasing number of both sexes see it as an insult isn't because of some patriarchal conspiracy in the media (yes, I've heard someone say that before!), it's because as people leave feminism as they feel it is unnecessary, the ones who remain are the militant radicals

You know this, do you? How, exactly?

Depends what you mean by feminist OP.....

I believe I'm a feminist because among other things I have battled away for the last ten years to make sure that woman in my work enviroment get equal pay for an equal job.

However, if I want a good laugh I go on the Mumsnet feminism forum. Some crazy people on there. Funny, but scary nuts....... The sort of feminism that gives real feminists a bad name. Good for a giggle sometimes though.

Large polls, surveys and research.

I'll link to them when I have time. The Fawcett Society was a famous one.

YABU unless you secretly long to be paid less than a man and are ok you (and your DD) being vulnerable to sexual assault, rape and domestic violence, and then being told it's your fault. If you are totally fine with that, crack on.

I do think some of the problem is the way feminists are presented in the media. I think that Millie Tant did a lot of damage even if many people haven't consciously heard of her any more. I think that there are plenty of myths that have become eintenched and I have no idea how we can shift them. The term "Women's Lib" dropped out of favour for the same reasons- it was inextricably linked with bra burning that never happened and the SCUM manifesto that was a satire and Andrea Dworkin who most people had never read that it became a millstone.

There are many similar myths around feminism. The reasons I have heard people giving for not being feminists often (not always) seem to stem from misunderstandings. Feminists don't hate men. Feminists don't hate pretty clothes. Feminists don't think all men are rapists.Feminists don't want to be superior to men. Feminists think that men benefit from feminism too.

But feminists do think that male violence is a problem. Feminists do think that there is inequality in the way many households are run, and the societal expectations of women in terms of domestic work and child rearing. Feminists do think that there are inequalities in the work place and in public life that need to be addressed.

Obviously these are things that don't affect everybody. But surely we all know people they do affect?

I know I will be accused of telling people what to think. But surely there are "bottom line" issues we can all agree on? You can dress head to toe in pink and glitter and be a feminist. I don't think you can be a feminist if you think it's OK for a couple to work 40 hour weeks OTH and in the evening the man expects to watch telly while the woman does all the work needed to run a family. And that happens a lot- Mumsnet is full of similar scenarios. You can be a SAHP and be a feminist. You can't be a feminist if you think Weinstein's victims brought it on themselves.

I can't identify as a feminist either- given tweets from the likes of Emily Linden...

I'd disassociate from any movement with attitudes like hers. (I'd screenshot but don't know how)

This is why every woman should be a feminist. The fact that these figures are true, in 2017?

www.unwomen.org/en/digital-library/multimedia/2015/11/infographic-violence-against-women

Do you think Emily Lindin is the spokesperson for feminism?

"Here’s an unpopular opinion: I’m actually not at all concerned about innocent men losing their jobs over false sexual assault/harassment allegations…false allegations VERY rarely happen, so even bringing it up borders on a derailment tactic. It’s a microscopic risk in comparison to the issue at hand (worldwide, systemic oppression of half the population)…The benefit of all of us getting to finally tell the truth + the impact on victims FAR outweigh the loss of any one man’s reputation..If some innocent men’s reputations have to take a hit in the process of undoing the patriarchy, that is a price I am absolutely willing to pay.”

Is this the Emily Linden quotation you meant?

Well given I don't see any feminists "calling her out" which if I remember rightly all men are supposed to do for the behaviours of other men, and her tweet was liked over 550 times, I'd say her views are fairly representative?

Yep that's the one

It is difficult though. How do you deal with the fact that there may be a tiny number of false accusations in the tidal wave of real ones? Isn't it the same for any crime?

I believe I'm a feminist because I consider:

• my value to society is equal to a man's
• my opinion is as valid as a man's
• I have (broadly) the same rights as a man
• discussing Theresa May's clothes before her politics is fundamentally wrong
• pornography (including page 3) degrades women

I don't object to anyone opening a door for me, saying they like my hairstyle or buying me a drink. Male or female.

I haven't read the whole thread but I hope someone has pointed out to the OP that pink was until recently the colour for baby boys.

What, 500 likes means her views are ‘representative’? What on earth leads you to think that?

Also, I don’t have time or capacity to go calling out people whose views I don’t even read or know about, how on earth would that actually work?

Also calling someone out on a statement that deals with a hypothetical outcome is NOT in any way in the same category as asking that men call other men out on horrible views and attitudes towards women that ARE acted on a huge number of times, many times a day, over and over again, and that damage women terribly.

It is difficult though. How do you deal with the fact that there may be a tiny number of false accusations in the tidal wave of real ones? Isn't it the same for any crime?

Well surely what you don't do, Is say you'll happily see men, who you know are innocent, lose their jobs and reputations to further your own cause.

Also, I don’t have time or capacity to go calling out people whose views I don’t even read or know about, how on earth would that actually work?

Well now you do know, what do you think? Do you support that view? Is it unfeminist?

I think responding to the issue of rape by asking “whataboutthemen” is a common tactic to minimise the impact on women.

It’s hugely frustrating and silencing. I suspect that’s what Emily Lindin was expressing.

Bertrand, how do you know that the number of false accusations is tiny compared to the number of real ones? Not saying you’re wrong as that’s my gut feeling also, but given how difficult it can be to prove guilt in rape and sexual assault cases, it seems like it would be very hard to collect reliable statistics on something like that.

Well surely what you don't do, Is say you'll happily see men, who you know are innocent, lose their jobs and reputations to further your own cause."
Two things here. Firstly, I don't think she is saying that- I think she is saying that there will be a few false allegations, but a few men having to prove themselves innocent is a small price to pay for justice for a multitude of women. The same applies to any crime.

And "to further your own cause"? Isn't the prevention of sexual harassment and sexual abuse everyone's cause?

pyscho i think false accusations are >2% but I can’t remember where I saw that figure - I’ll try and link a citation.

[[https://www.rapecrisisscotland.org.uk/false-allegations/ ]]

Ok here - it’s actually 3%, apologies