In not wanting to be a feminist

[tireddotcom72]

I know I’m not alone as have had this conversation with friends but does anyone else feel PC stuff is just going too far now. The gender stuff is confusing me - I’m female always have been always will be and perfectly happy that way I don’t want to identify whatever that means with anything else and change my mind or whatever the gender fluid thing is ( that really confuses me) I’m mum to a daughter - who when younger was a pink, princess, Barbie loving frilly dress wearing child. I loved her wearing pretty dresses and wanting pretty hair. I’ve always worked in female dominated jobs - through choice no one forced me from being little I wanted to be cabin crew, my parents would have preferred me to be a solicitor, accountant or doctor like my siblings but supported my decision to go into the beauty industry because that’s what I was happy doing.
When I was younger I was whistled at in the street, had my bum pinched in nightclubs etc I wasn’t offended or outraged.

I don’t want to live in a genderless world, I don’t want my teenage daughter being in gender neutral changing rooms, I don’t even like being referred to as someone’s partner I’m quite happy being called his girlfriend.

I don’t want to offend anyone with my probably old fashioned views - I’m not even old! But I’m getting fed up of constantly hearing and reading about what I should think and believe, i mean the latest fuss about Sleeping beauty ..... what will pc brigade want to ban next?

Oh, and I don't understand why anyone would reject feminism as a whole because one woman said something you don't like. Isn't that the sort of sweeping generalization people are always accusing feminists of making? I don't hate all men because one made a meme of Mary Beard's vulva and rather more that 500 others shared it......

See Bertrand’s replies which are exactly what I would have said.

‘Further your own cause’. Shouldn’t it be everyone’s cause? Honestly, shouldn’t EVERYONE want equality and freedom for girls/women from oppression and harrassment?

ewe I totally agree.

pumper you're right... we don't agree at all. I don't think it's my husbands job to stop rape that he doesn't know about and can't help.

Some women steal, lie, cheat and abuse. I wish you'd sort that out seeing as you are personally responsible. Being the same gender and all.

Yes, what is it about women that makes them want to say ‘what about the men’ so very much? Well, we know what it is - conditioning always to make room, make allowances, always to minimise what happens to women, just to accept being treated and viewed as less than. Even when protections of women is the context, many women simply can’t get away from that.

Being the same sex - very important distinction.

And that argument doesn’t hold, because how men as a class treat women as a class is so far removed from how women as a class treat men as to be completely opposed. It’s a false equivalent.

bertrand you're doing less for feminism on here than anyone else. This is why people are getting sick to death of it. Your self righteous condescending rants are enough to put anyone off what you stand for.

And no... that doesn't mean I want to be raped or killed or hand back my right to vote. It means I appreciate what I have but don't feel the need to blame everyone with a penis for all the problems in the World.

Can't possibly waste anymore of my time trying to explain a point that doesn't want to be heard!

You're not alone OP.

"I don't think it's my husbands job to stop rape that he doesn't know about and can't help"

But do you think it is his job to show that he does not agree with the way many other men treat women? To say that he does not find sexist jokes and misogynist talk acceptable? To speak out when/if he sees unequal treatment of women in his workplace? To explain to other men why he won't go with them to strip clubs?

Well surely what you don't do, Is say you'll happily see men, who you know are innocent, lose their jobs and reputations to further your own cause."
Two things here. Firstly, I don't think she is saying that- I think she is saying that there will be a few false allegations, but a few men having to prove themselves innocent is a small price to pay for justice for a multitude of women. The same applies to any crime.

That's EXACTLY what she is saying. It's there in black and white.
"I'm actually not at all concerned about innocent men losing their jobs over false sexual assault/harassment allegations

Sorry. If some innocent men's reputations have to take a hit in the process of undoing the patriarchy, that is a price I am absolutely willing to pay

Do you think that's acceptable? Do you agree? I personally think that's fucking disgusting.

hollow

No one is blaming men for all the ills in the world.

But violence? That’s on men
Sexual violence? That’s on men
Oppression of women as a class? Men.

The UN report I posted up there is sobering reading.

There are none so blind as those that will not see.

Bertrand is not ranting. She has been measured and clear and laid out well-reasoned arguments. Maybe think about why you feel the need to reject that as ranting. It is not sanctimonious, nor condescending, to be well-thought out in one’s reasoning and to want to hold people to account.

OP you are funny . Thank you for starting my cold ridden day with such a good laugh.

But your place in society clearly does matter to you, as why else would you try to give the impression you are a qualified teacher when you clearly aren’t? I suspect you are actually a TA or nursery helper, and good luck to you. But thanks to the work of feminists, male and female, you could be an actual teacher on equal pay and terms as your male counterpart, if you wanted.

Holger and Bertrand. Do you agree with what Lindin has said?

Grumpyfrog- I am assuming that when she says "innocent" she means men who have been accused and proved to be innocent? Like any other crime?

What is your solution?

I can understand that you think it’s fucking disgusting that we might accept that instances like that might happen, as it might with every crime. On balance, though, shouldn’t you be fucking disgusted with the huge number of sexual assaults and instances of sexual violence perpetrated against innocent girls/women and shouldn’t the focus rightly be on stopping those? Or is the innocent man more deserving of protection, hypothetically, than those girls/women?

*pumper you're right... we don't agree at all. I don't think it's my husbands job to stop rape that he doesn't know about and can't help.

Some women steal, lie, cheat and abuse. I wish you'd sort that out seeing as you are personally responsible. Being the same gender and all.*

I thought I’d been pretty clear in explaining your husband (and mine, and my dad and son etc)’s role in stopping it. It’s a shame that your husband doesn’t want to help.

Here’s what I do to stop women doing the things you’ve listed - I don’t do it myself, I teach my children not to do it, I pull my friends up if they do it, I don’t stand for it being seen as acceptable. Because I feel that it will benefit society.

Bertrand has already answered you. If you are unwilling or unable to grasp that there are grey areas of difficulty in any attempt to right great wrongs, and that there will always be that tension, but that women deserve to protected just as much as men do, then I’m not sure there’s anywhere we can go on this.

Hollowtree- I am sorry my posts upset you so much. I can only suggest you don't read them. There are plenty of other people saying the same things in ways you might find more acceptable.

@BertrandRussell the thing is that men don't have to prove themselves innocent. The courts have to prove them guilty. It's a cornerstone of our legal system in this country that you are innocent until proven guilty.

I must admit I am shocked that you want to throw innocent men under the figurative bus in this way.

Grumpyfrog- I am assuming that when she says "innocent" she means men who have been accused and proved to be innocent? Like any other crime?

Yep. Let's assume she means them. Do you agree with her?

Without the specific context for that quote I’m not privy to exactly what set of hypothetical circumstances are being referred to. So I can’t definitely argue on the subject, or state my views on it.

Generally, though, I would say it’s hard enough to convict a guilty man, almost to the point of there being not much point in pursuing it, so I don’t think innocent men have too much to worry about. If I knew the exact context I’d have more to say and could give more of an argument for my position on it.

Would it worry you if an innocent man were wrongly convicted? @HolgerDanske?

I can understand that you think it’s fucking disgusting that we might accept that instances like that might happen, as it might with every crime. On balance, though, shouldn’t you be fucking disgusted with the huge number of sexual assaults and instances of sexual violence perpetrated against innocent girls/women and shouldn’t the focus rightly be on stopping those?

Equally disgusted with both to be honest. However her tweet was not about accepting. It was about not being not at all concerned that innocent men losing their jobs over false allegations.
Besides, Is it not possible to worry about more than one thing at a time? Isn't that what we hear from feminism when criticism is levelled at it, for highlighting sexist adverts instead of FGM/Issues in Saudi etc?

Or is the innocent man more deserving of protection, hypothetically, than those girls/women?

Of course not.

Do you agree with her views?

Yes, of course it would. It would just worry me, I’d find it horrific the same as I would in any other context. What an odd question. Honestly what do you think feminism is? I am baffled that you even ask it.

However I care more about the actual crimes committed against actual people than I do about the hypothetical possibility of an innocent man being charged. That is how the law works, and checks and balances are built into it so that it can be as just abd fair as possible.

The hypothetical innocent man does not deserve more rights and protections than actual victims, of whom there are a great, great many.

I am glad you think the law is "as just an fair as possible" @HolgerDanske. That reassures me. Thank you. I must have misunderstood what you were saying.

Holger. From what I can see it was a stand alone tweet, not in reply to someone. It's not in regard to a "hypothetical circumstance" That's her views. She is quite happy to sacrifice innocent men, for her version of the greater good.

Are you as disgusted with her views as most others? Can you see why this turns people away from feminism?