AIBU to ask MNHQ if we can have a trans discussion section?

[Skarossinkplunger]

Out of the first 10 threads showing on my AIBU page 4 of them are trans threads. There is seriously no escaping, please can they have their own board?

@TerryleneRepresentative Democracy Interesting reading

Yes - the representatives were in complete ignorance about it too until very recently.

Which is why people need to contact their MP

you are right OP - there are a few on AIBU now - you cant miss them. I used to read them but them they would decend into arguments and some name calling - i just ignore them now - maybe (if they bother you) you can ignore the thread too?

peachgreen

please provide the evidence that trans identified males are being abused and assaulted because others refuse to allow them access to women's bathrooms and changing rooms.

please provide evidence that transgender children and teenagers are committing suicide at a higher rate than any other group because they aren't being taken seriously when they try to exert their bodily autonomy.

I wish that male sexual aggression was not a thing. I wish our bodies were not sexualised and taboo. But it is and they are.

The five main issues for me are:

• I am fearful of what will happen when anyone who chooses can decide they are a woman, with no gatekeeping, can get access to women's spaces. Those who don't think this will be a problem are either not aware of the evidence that already exists on this - or they are and they don't care. I think it's important to make sure people are aware that this is an issue, and those who don't care are challenged.

• I am outraged that children, teenagers and their parents are making life changing decisions to go down the path to transition based on information from people with an agenda, rather than on science. There was a blog the other day from a very reasonable sounding parent, saying that they are happy that their child is transitioning because of the suicide risk otherwise, because they thought puberty blockers are safe and that bone density issues are not a serious consideration, that the things about most trans teen turnign out to be gay is a myth and because they thought transition would be the solution.

All of those "facts" are either lies or debatable. But they'd been in touch with Mermaids for "support" and the outcome is that they believe this stuff. Meanwhile their child is on a pathway to being a sterile adult with their sexual organs irreparably damaged, potential life long health issues, low or non existent sex drive, a much harder job of finding people willing to be their sexual or romantic partners, and they may decide, longer term, that transition wasn't necessary in the first place.

Transition is a serious medical procedure that isn't happening on the basis of science, it's happening on the basis of ideology.

Families with trans teens are being lied to by groups such as Mermaids. There will be a huge backlash in a few years with adults suing for being transed as a teen.

• the rise of openly mysogynistic attitudes among TRAs - they've now started physically attacking women, and they and their followers think this is justified and righteous. This needs to be challenged. Look up TERF is a slur

• how this is affecting gay kids e.g. the vile abuse towards lesbian teens for not wanting to sleep with people with penises and toward them. Also the bullying of effiminate gay boys and butch lesbian girls that is leading them to see transition as a better option - in the short term anyhow - yet to flag that this is going on is framed as being transphobic

• that we're being told to STFU. Women who speak out about this are losing their jobs, being given orders to never speak about trans issues or to keep our conversation to ourselves. This is wrong.

If we really were being hateful then fair enough. But what's actually happening is that the TRAS, a group of people with pretty extreme views and no reasonable arguments to back them up, are being given a platform. While people with counter arguments are being silenced with words like bigot, terf, threats of rape, murder and violence, actual violence, no platforming and their hashtag #nodebate.

Whether you are concerned about trans issues or not you should be concerned about how laws are being made without proper scrutiny or exaination of evidence and how mysogynistic bullying is being encourage to flourish in public.

They never do Flora. They shout bigot and then shalimar

Sorry I meant to say, in relation to this:

I wish that male sexual aggression was not a thing. I wish our bodies were not sexualised and taboo. But it is and they are.

If men and women were equal, it wouldn't affect us so much if this happened. But we're not treated equally. Sexual agression towards women is a huge issue in our society, sadly. The evidence shows that transwomen have male pattern violence.

Why the fuck shouldn't we be able to say something when we can see we're being put at risk?

The pp who shout transphobe and never actually debate or explain themselves are the ones who usually get nasty and goady in my experience.

We are allowed to get angry about this issue, so no long as we aren’t being abusive, Mumsnet opened my eyes to this and like other people I’m shocked and very concerned.

An example of the ignorance on this thread which I suspect you saw was "trans cult". Very offensive.

Sigh.

But many aspects of the trans political lobby (NOT trans people, trans political activism) do tick quite a number of boxes on what a cult is and how it works. Stating facts is not offensive. By all means debate what a cult is and what aspects do and do not make for a cult, but simply saying 'that's offensive' basically means 'you can't talk about that'.

With the impending Gender Rights Bill

Is there actually a Gender Rights Bill before Parliament currently? I can't find any details.

See here...

(That's re buckets post, to be clear)

No, I am bored of parking threads, but I don't ask for a separate section for these.

Anyway, if we were moving threads to where they belong (which I can kind of agree with, but only if it applies to everything and chat/Aibu disappear completely), surely the recent few would be in "in the news" as they've come from newspaper reports?

I opened this thread and read through for education really as I don't know a huge amount about the related issues.

I just wish that posters like Assigned (there is usually one on most threads) wouldn't be so unpleasant, rude and spiteful. It shuts down meaningful complaint.

What happened to discussions where we can say "I see your point here, but think the context is irrelevant" (as an eg! If you don't agree on any points no need to pretend but you can still discuss politely) so that posters can have sensible debate without some posters just slamming each other with barbed language and condescension.

For eg. OP has raised a point for discussion and been open to perspectives and lo and behold she's been condemned as arrogant and all sorts!

There is plenty of evidence out there, and organisations dedicated to collating it.

www.theguardian.com/education/2017/jun/27/half-of-trans-pupils-in-the-uk-tried-to-take-their-own-lives-survey-finds

edition.cnn.com/2017/03/07/health/transgender-bathroom-law-facts-myths/index.html

williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/Herman-Gendered-Restrooms-and-Minority-Stress-June-2013.pdf

But it doesn't matter - you won't believe any of this. So what's the point in me even posting it?

As an aside, I've never seen anyone posting from an anti-trans perspective either providing, or being asked to provide, evidence for their statements. There's dozens and dozens all over this thread without a shred of evidence. But nobody calls it out because of the echo chamber effect.

This thread is a wonderful example of why people with opposing viewpoints don't contribute. There's one of me and a dozen of you. And often, the responses are quite aggressive and filled with what are, in my eyes, bigoted and offensive statements that make for very unpleasant reading (I appreciate that to you, they're just "facts" and therefore can't be offensive, but that's not the case for me).

As a result, I am stepping away from this thread now. I'm sure you'll all see that as yet another victory, but there's no other way this could ever have ended - the loudest voice will always triumph. I could continue posting on here for another hundred posts, but nobody's opinion will change and all I'd be doing would be presenting myself for more group punishment. It's a funny form of feminism, in my eyes. But there we are.

Meaningful conversation I meant, not complaint!

Just I have never seen any evidence that trans women are at huge risk of attack in male areas

Have you ever considered the fact that transwomen don't tend to use male areas so there won't be any evidence of attack because transwomen avoid such areas.

If transwomen were in male areas getting changed and going to the toilet, what do you think might happen?

Beyond
I am going to repost that post of RedToothBrush's because you can't see it properly and it was a stunning analysis

RedToothBrush Tue 21-Nov-17 17:26:51

Datun, that would be because trans-activism is apolitical cult

Everything about trans-activism is related to an authoritarian approach to promoting trans rights.

It has taken me a very long time to really work out, just why trans-activism really bothered me so much. I have really struggled in the past with reconciling my liberalism with the trans agenda.

Something about the way it was being pushed made me feel uncomfortable, its wasn't purely what was being pushed and the ideology it represented.

Politics at the moment in western society, is being driven by a number of different political cults, so there is a pattern of behaviour. Political cults are the preserve of both the far left and the far right, where authoritarian tendencies lie. And trans-activism very much fails into this. Its only when there has been a lot more discussion of this, that the penny has dropped and I've better understood, my own personal conflict over it.

The framing and the propaganda that goes with trans-activism says its liberal, yet the way it is being pushed is not. The creation and use of language is a tell. It is used to distort meaning. As are 'fake facts', which when you scratch at them, they fall apart very quickly and with little effort.

Cults rely on the idea of belief. This is why you will never get 'true believers' engaging with the questions of 'outsiders' or those who they have cast into the role of 'the enemy'. You either believe or you don't. Non believers will be cast into hell. Any questioning of individuals in the cult is framed as 'persecution' rather than normal debate. There is no such thing and constructive criticism. All criticism is an attack on the entire group and its entire being.

The language of trans-activism also owes a great deal to propaganda techniques. Others have made the Orwell comparison about Transwoman is Woman. Orwell was anti-authoritarian and saw the danger in it.

Real liberalism, is based on consensus building and persuasion that there is a shared objective, goal or interest in pursuing a certain course which is then socially led rather than led by law. Laws may then be built to protect the consensus. Authoritarian approaches force the law first and enforce it socially by aggressive means, but do not necessarily change beliefs under the surface. They just supress them.

Trans Authoritarianism has dangers for its own members too though. In promoting something which has no basis in reality, at some point there is a collision with reality in one way or another which can come as an extreme shocking and be very difficult for those individuals to cope with, because they have built up their identity around that and have a support network based around people who share that. If members of the cult start to ask questions, they themselves find themselves cast out for not being true believers by 'rocking the boat'. You only belong if you believe.

Religious cult survivors talk about the isolation of being on the 'outside' and can suffer from PTSD.

This also means that trans-activism has a problem too. Its built on a reality that doesn't exist, so if something happens or a pattern emerges which undermines it the whole thing could collapse in itself as the hold it has on people disappears and can no longer be enforced. That's is also why it is so aggressive in trying to avoid even the tiniest crack to 'the belief'.

Can anyone argue to the contrary?

Thanks assigned, I probably should have thought of people viewing on a smaller screen than me

If anyone is interested, red elaborates on the thread she posted it on (I'll grab a link for the right thread now...)

It's on this one...
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3091727-At-a-19yr-Old-Transwoman-being-elected-a-Labour-woman-s-officer

I've never seen anyone posting from an anti-trans perspective either providing, or being asked to provide, evidence for their statements.

I'm sorry, that's plain not true.

Please look at the feminist board for the threads there on the GRB. (And all threads are specific to self identification and the GRB). You'll find linked article after article, links to research, links to a wide range of speakers most of which are national names, plus reasoned discussion of that evidence. It's a massive library of collated evidence. Plus no few threads discussing and comparing evidence provided by different bodies some of which are pro TRA and some of which have concerns re trans political activist statistics and claims in an attempt by most posters to figure out what is true.

sagamartha
If transwomen were in male areas getting changed and going to the toilet, what do you think might happen?

^

If anyone can identify as a woman on their whim and thus avail themselves of the women's facilities which opportunists do you think might take advantage of that fact? Because it certainly won't just be people with a penchant for dresses and eyeliner or with vaginas.
If thousands of women are coming out by the minute to say #metoo that means there are thousands of sexual predators out there, you don't think they might take advantage of the women's spaces too?

Transwomen, biologically are men. You can argue the semantics of it all day long but its reality and funnily enough one supported by my medical degree. I would need to give those born male and those born female different drugs for countless conditions and treatments - I cannot do that based on how they identify, I would so it based on biological fact.
It's terrible that transwomen are treated badly in spaces (men's spaces) that they are entitled to use and I will fight tooth and nail for those spaces to be made safer and for male pattern violence to be overcome, however our spaces are now being made unsafe too. Do you not see that?

Buckets, as you mention the Gender Recognition Bill, perhaps you can answer my query as to whether there is any Bill of this nature currently before Parliament?