AIBU to ask MNHQ if we can have a trans discussion section?

[Skarossinkplunger]

Out of the first 10 threads showing on my AIBU page 4 of them are trans threads. There is seriously no escaping, please can they have their own board?

It was due to come up before parliament this autumn Ceto pretty much now, but it was recently delayed a little, which may mean December or more likely now the New Year. It seems as if MPs are beginning to realise there is more to look into here and wider implications to consider first, particularly following the meeting held with MPs this month. The presentations made by a number of people at that meeting, Miranda Yardley included, are available to read on line. There's a thread about the meeting with the links on the Feminist Chat board. I can't track it down right now but will look later.

There is shortly to be a consultation on changes to the GRA 2004 which would allow people to legally self-identify as a man or woman simply by filling in a form. Scotland have already opened their consultation (open to everybody, not just those in Scotland).

This is one of several changes to the law recommended in the Women & Equality Committee's 2015 Transgender Equality Report.

SAGES have produced a factsheet on the implications of the proposed changes.

If transwomen were in male areas getting changed and going to the toilet, what do you think might happen?

I think there might be a few raised eyebrows. They might get laughed at.

peach If you haven't seen women being asked for evidence to support their concerns, you're obviously not much involved in this issue.

The Stonewall report doesn't support your claim that suicidal ideation or attempted suicide is caused by not being taken seriously when they try to exert their bodily autonomy. Body dysphoria is often co-morbid with other mental health issues.

The CNN report doesn't address either of the claims you've made.

The Williams Institute report is from the US. From that report, of the 93 people who answered the questionnaire, 4 reported being physically removed from the facility (this is not necessarily an assault) 2 were hit or kicked (assaulted), 6 were physically intimidated and/or cornered (not necessarily an assault), and 1 slapped (assaulted). One transgender male-to-female respondent reported having been sexually assaulted while using the men’s room.

There are far more instances of women being assaulted and harassed by men in women's bathrooms. That's a tiny number of trans identified men who were assaulted and all women's spaces will become less safe to prevent it. That tells you a lot about priorities.

It's terrible that transwomen are treated badly in spaces (men's spaces) that they are entitled to use and I will fight tooth and nail for those spaces to be made safer and for male pattern violence to be overcome, however our spaces are now being made unsafe too

The question was in response to someone who said:

Just I have never seen any evidence that trans women are at huge risk of attack in male areas

Yet you've just said it's terrible that transwomen are treated badly in male areas.

So you think that transwomen are at risk in male areas which is contrary to someone else who doesn't think they are at risk because there's no evidence?

Trans people in sport, Top Shop or wherever else is a non-issue for all people who can exercise a little critical thinking.

WHAAAAAAT?????

How is having someone who went through male pubety and is a fully functioning male (taller, heavier, with faster twitch muscle etc) competeing against femails in sport NOT a bad thing for women?

If you are OK wiht having trans women playing agasint owmen in sport - why do you think we have male/female segregated sport? If we don't need womnes sport ptpoected form trans women, we don't nee differnet male/female sport do we?

So crack on - lets have Venus Williams versus Andy Murray. Lets have Usain Bolt running against Elaine Thompson in the 100m.

FFFS crazy typos but hopefully the meaning is clear.

Women / men in prisons is another matter entirely but I have first hand professional knowledge of what it takes to get into a maximum security women's prison. It might be my own shortcoming but those people are beyond sympathy.

So Women in Cat A deserve to be sexually assaulted and raped by men? Nice. Really fucking nice.

Women / men in prisons is another matter entirely but I have first hand professional knowledge of what it takes to get into a maximum security women's prison. It might be my own shortcoming but those people are beyond sympathy.

They aren't beyond mine. And, once again, what about women in shelters and refuges?

There is a third way, one that I would support. But TRAs don't want that.

So you think that transwomen are at risk in male areas which is contrary to someone else who doesn't think they are at risk because there's no evidence?

Shock horror, two people don't agree on every point. How does that advance your position?

So if the Bill is only at a preliminary consultation stage, it's a long way off and may never happen?

a mosaic brain with male and female traits seems plausible, defensible and a current working theory. This means that it's entirely possible for a male brain to be in a female body and vice versa.

What are male traits and what are female traits? How are these scientifically established as male or female?
What is the science that demonstrates the "male brain"?
How does the existence of a mosaic brain lead to a conclusion that a male brain can be in a female body?

Cordelia Fine's research shows that all brains are a mosaic of different attributes.

Trans people are not a cult

You are denying a claim that was never made. The closest I find is trans-activism is apolitical cult. Don't twist words and meanings if you want to argue that the other person is wrong.

plausible, defensible and a current working theory. This means that it's entirely possible for a male brain to be in a female body and vice versa.

Yes. Its also a current working theory and entirely possible for aliens to exist or that the Loch Ness Monster is swimming around. But as a reason for agreeing to self identification and the massive effects this could potentially have on women and girls, I'd need it to be a whole lot more than a working theory and possible.

YANBU op but there’s a Brexit section and we still get 2/3 Brexit threads a week so not sure it would do any good

Third way...

Before all this self-ID nonsense, this is what happened in the local homeless shelters. The male shelter had a female 'bit', where the slightly less vulnerable women stayed. Transwomen were welcome there as long as the other women felt they were safe. The transwomen were often sex workers who the other residents felt were part of their lives and everyone rubbed along. Any predatory man pretending would have been told. And housed in the male part (possibly separately).

There was also a small female only shelter for just natal women. Strongly policed by staff and residents. Younger, more vulnerable, more fearful women who were pretty much all victims of male violence could be safe and feel secure. All fabulous.

With self-ID any man can ask to be housed in the small female shelter and turning them away could be a hate crime.

As I say, feminists don't hate all the lovely, and vulnerable, transwomen we've met and supported over the years. Their safety IS important. But self-ID is dangerous, stupid and will be abused.

So if the Bill is only at a preliminary consultation stage, it's a long way off and may never happen? Maybe. It was announced by Teresa May in July and has already been through part of the process as a private members bill before the general election. Justine Greening already has an award for it. Perhaps she will take the award and kick the bill into the long grass? There are a lot of very experienced lobbyists watching.

Sorry Malcolm, let me make myself clearer:

Yes. (ie yes I agree with the section of your post about male/female mosaic brains being a current working theory and possible.)

Its also a current working theory and entirely possible for aliens to exist or that the Loch Ness Monster is swimming around. (ie yes there are many various working theories and possibilities that we are all familiar with, that may seem more or less fantastic as data changes and evolves over time.)

But as a reason (your point about mosaic brains being a working theory/possibility) for agreeing to self identification and the massive effects this could potentially have on women and girls, I'd need it to be a whole lot more than a working theory and possible.(Ie this is an insufficient basis for such a massive change which may have massive negative implications for 51% of the population.)

Mrs T - that was mentioned as an unintended consequence in the US on the Westminster Hour on Sunday. www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09fj989

The women's homeless shelter no longer exists.

Saga I can have differing opinions on different parts of the same argument.

En masse men assault men, men assault transwomen, men assault women. The first two have equal rights to use male spaces - if they are being bullied, assaulted or scared out of the male space that is terrible, it should be illegal and I will happily help fight for their right to make the spaces they are entitled to use safe.
Equally if a group of women started to attack a transman using the women's toilets I would fight against those women for the transman and her right to avail herself of the female loos.