LBC.... Trans women and non trans women.

[therealposieparker]

AIBU to expect us to be called women?

At first we're cis, then non men and now non-trans?

What the hell is happening?

Woman = adult human female
Female = of the sex with the ability to bear offspring
Therefore a man (biologically speaking) CANNOT be a woman.

Being a woman is not a feeling in a man's head. It is biological fact.
How can anyone think otherwise?

someone said if you have a penis your male and a vagina your femalethats wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong

No, it's absolutely correct. To suggest that a man with a penis is a woman is absolute rubbish. .
If you really, really want to be a woman, the nearest you can get is to have your penis and testicles removed. You won't actually get to be a real woman, but at least it shows willing. Otherwise you are just a man with a skirt.

I'm not sure why it's so hard to define a woman - I understood this was very clearly defined. A woman is an adult human female. A human female can, did, or has the capability to produce stationary ova.

It doesn't matter if you have different external genitals or chromosomes, this I understand is the definition. No man can ever produce stationary ova, so is never female (and so can never be a woman).

I understand that people who have difficulty whether they produce stationary or mobile ova can be classified by high probability based on their chromosomes; which have an extremely high correlation with sex of the human organism.

If you started life with testicles and no ovaries, you can never be a woman.

Transgender:

• No ambiguities in innate biological sex characteristics.
• Self-declared gender does not match biology
• A full and functional reproductive system
• A choice to transition in manner of own choosing
• Identical twins with one twin transgender will not necessarily have other twin transgender
• No in utero test possible
• Can always compete in sport as biological sex. May be able to compete in self-declared gender

Intersex:

• Has biological variation on body from female/male norm
• May have genetic, chromosomal and hormonal differences and differences in whole of body, particularly sex organs.
• Likely to be infertile
• May be subject to irreversible surgery as an infant
• Identical twins will both be intersex if one is
• Can be tested for many conditions in utero, and subject to termination
• May or may not be able to compete in sport in either sex.

Not related at all.

I wonder how many transgender farmers there are out there

They're a cohort who certainly know their males from their females.

Why do these people want to be women so much when they clearly hate women and want to remove all rights from women?

Can't they be their own, unique, whatever they are? I'm all for freedom, pan sexuality, queerness, but why choose to be something they clearly hate? (not all trans people, obviously, but the ones who seem to want to eradicate the rights of all women who were not born with a cock?)

If you started life with testicles and no ovaries, you can never be a woman. why does caster semenya compete in the female events then

If some transwomen are so keen to be women why don't they transition completely?
If they want to be treated as a woman then that's the answer.

If you started life with testicles and no ovaries, you can never be a woman. why does caster semenya compete in the female events then

Because people with intersex disorders are different to trans people, and therefore.it is reasonable for them to be treated differently.

I find the term cis woman offensive. I was told on social media that men can get pregnant. When I replied if that’s the case then why aren’t the doctors suggesting my husband goes through the ivf treat we are awaiting on, they had no answer for that one.

I can’t believe we are having to argue basic biology. If you have a penis you are a man, if you have a vagina you are a female.

Why do these people want to be women so much when they clearly hate women and want to remove all rights from women?

It’s the old battle of the sexes isn’t it? They’re displaying entrenched male attitudes and behaviour which absolutely means that they’re not women. The sense of entitlement and overt aggression can only come from a male mindset and from years of socialisation as a male.

Men sort of expand to fit the space - in more ways than one - and seek to displace rivals. We’re their rivals apparently, so we’re being denied our own spaces and being reclassified as something else - they don’t appear to have arrived at a satisfactory name for us yet other than ‘cis’ which will probably prove to be a temporary label until something even more derogatory can be agreed on.

I was born into a upper middle family but always have had the majority of my friends as working class. Married a working class man, raising our children using words such as tea and toilet . I feel uncomfortable in the company of other upper middles and always have done.
I have fully embraced a working class life if you were to see it on the outside but.... I have the innate, inbuilt sense of entitlement and confidence being born and raised into a certain class (unfairly) gives a person and in the wise words of Jarvis Cocker, when we've been poor and almost out on our arse 'if I called my dad I could stop it all'.

Men, in the same way can and will never be women however much they feel they identity with them because they are born and raised with a similar type of inbuilt entitlement. They have not had the inborn disadvantages that women have to put up with by a society (worldwide) that views them as second class citizens. An if things get a bit real they can dig deep and pull out that male privilege to protect them.

I am gender critical. If a man or woman feels they relate more to things traditionally assigned to the opposite sex then crack on and I hope you can without prejudice. Biology however is a fact and to deny it is dangerous.

Being a woman is a bit shit really. Nobody in their right mind would actually choose to be one bearing in mind the shocking discrimination we have to endure not to mention the physical discomforts, wife work, crap clothing, more expensive stuff, stinky sanitary protection and patronising attitudes from the media and the establishment in general. What’s there to like? These trans people obviously don’t get to experience any of this.

"if you started life with testicles and no ovaries, you can never be a woman. why does caster semenya compete in the female events then"

Well there are lots of males in female events, e.g.,

cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/6da7396ae027b5d73fdb7e37bf2f56d7?width=650

We don't know the full details of Caster's biology so there's not too much sense in discussion. It seems she has partial androgen insensitivity. Some people with PAIS are raised male, it depends on the degree. It's possible that had she been born in a hospital, rather than a poor village, her PAIS would have been identified at birth and she would have been raised male. But it's not possible to say that unequivocally. She does have a female partner and male testosterone levels.

This still doesn't have anything to do with transgender people deciding they are women, however.

To be clear, trans lobbyists talk about suicide constantly. It's presented as normal, de rigeur almost, for trans people to attempt suicide

Are you having a fucking laugh? I've spent three days of the last seven with the CAMHS crisis team because my daughter has revealed her detailed suicide plan. This is not TRA rhetoric, this is not an agenda, this is a real person in very real pain and I am a real person in very real pain. I would ask you to show a bit of respect for others and not belittle their experiences, especially when you've not got a clue.

Well - there is nothing that contradicts what I said.

We choose to only have two sports categories and the appropriate sports federation has decided their own tests to determine the whether or not a person can engage in a sport for a single sex.

For sporting purposes, the sports federations chose that where despite having the presence of a Y chromosome, the Y chromosome was faulty in the SRY gene that they would allow the competitor to compete in female competitions. It could have been chosen to be male, or not allowed at all.

Complete red herring though - nothing to do with the discussion.

YABU to TransWoman in your Title both you and them are just women

Wrong, mistaken, misguided....nope

Runner, stop contradicting yourself! Also it's not clear when you are quoting others, hugely confusing.

Glad this in AIBU, looks like this problem might start getting attention.

These people want to be pretend women in order to help keep down real women, enact their homophobic views, and possibly indulge fantasy at the same time.

I've always thought sex determined by chromosomes, and gender is a social construct, and you belong to whichever gender you identify with.

Incitatus - that may be your personal experience, but I don't feel that way - so it cannot be attached to the characteristic of being a women.

Clothing is infinitely better than the boring stuff men have. Choose what work you want to do, and whether you want to buy stuff people are marketing to women for a premium. At the moment in the UK my experience is we are in a privileged position.

Funnily enough - the physical discomforts and sanitary parts are very related to the definition of being a woman I gave - and it's exactly those things that someone who is just calling themselves a woman will never experience.

Would I want to change to be a man - the answer is no, I enjoy being a woman!

More on the misappropriation of intersex by trans people here

www.aissg.org/21_OVERVIEW.HTM#Start

"Intersexuality is not the same as a transsexuality (gender dysphoria) and is not a transgender state. Neither of the latter terms is one that we recognise as belonging in any general discussion of intersex. We are not happy with the recent tendency of some trans groups/people to promote transgender as an umbrella term to encompass, for example, transsexuality, transvestitism and intersex. We object to other organisations/individuals putting us in categories without consulting us, especially categories that imply that intersexed people, of necessity, have gender identity issues. "

"We are constantly trying to get away from the idea that intersex is necessarily to do with gender identity, a notion that others (including the press/media) like to impose on us. Moreover, the prefix trans- infers a "moving across", and although a few people with intersex conditions may choose to change their gender role, the vast majority never "go" anywhere in terms of their sex or their gender, but are happy to stay in the status in which they grew up."

"This trend towards 'muscling in' on intersex issues seems to be a initiative on the part of certain politically-minded people in the 'trans' community, to bring intersex under their banner (for whatever reason - it lends more credibility to their cause?) or even to actively interfere in clinical issues relating to intersex. See Announcements for an account of the problems we had in 2000 with a gender dysphoria/transsexual organisation trying to interfere in protocols for 'gender reinforcement' surgery in intersexed infants with so-called genital ambiguity."

In other words, a person with androgen insensitivity, unless very mild, we can say deterministically has a female gender identity. E.g., www.theguardian.com/fashion/2017/apr/23/intersex-and-proud-hanne-gaby-odiele-the-model-finally-celebrating-her-body

This is still a matter of biology - these people have an intersex condition that results in a female gender.

We cannot determine, biologically, that Caitlyn Jenner has a female gender identity. And indeed transgender people insist that gender is arbitrary and is whatever they said it is on a given day of the week. such as the ridiculous Pippa/Philip Bunce: twitter.com/pippabunce?lang=en

Floella im sorry that you and your child are going through this. Please remember that (I would imagine) all if not almost all of the other people arguing the toss here don’t know what that’s like. You have a child with an emotional difficulty who has also walked into a political minefiled. To have a child who wants to kill themselves or hates themselves is about as painful for a parent as is humanly possible:

ive read the whole thread summary 1 person asked define women answer was with chromozone this was countered by saying it is as simple as genitalia however how to define sex is intresting and complicated and as there are 46 diffrent intersex conditions with all posible variants of chromozone and genitals. however it has NOTHING to do with the trans debate as in almost all cases they start with a chromozone and genitals that match. however to the question of the tweet yes they shouldn't of said non trans women

Hang on a minute - who is calling us 'non trans women'? What's LBC? If this is a mainstream thing then yes, that is shocking. But it's not something I've ever heard before.

Mind you, I've never been called cis in real life either, nor have I ever met anyone who is obviously trans. It's all very theoretical and 'mumsnet world' to me.

Though I would definitely say I'm a TERF for the purposes of the internet world. The idea that you can change sex is ridiculous and gender stereotypes are harmful bullshit. So YANBU I don't think - I'm just sure exactly where this information is coming from.