LBC.... Trans women and non trans women.

[therealposieparker]

AIBU to expect us to be called women?

At first we're cis, then non men and now non-trans?

What the hell is happening?

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed

I didn't use intersex people for a "gotcha" moment at all as I think I had exposed many valid points way before I refered to intersex in my post.

You seem to have made up your mind about what you assume my intention were when posting so I doubt there is much point debating about it now. I have apologize for any offense caused as, like I said, it wasn't my intention.

Suicide is not just for trans kids. Suicidal ideation is pretty much peddled as a requirement by trans kids and adults, the data doesn't seem to support it (except that which is spewed by trans charities). I'm sure being dysphoric in any way is immense suffering but I cannot accept the solution is to accept body alteration as a cure, especially when many women regret those changes later which causes deep and endless suffering.

Talking therapies and watching and waiting are two alternatives to body mutilation and a life time of drugs.

Except these don't fit the current trans ideology. The current ideology is a threat to trans people as well... after all if you can say you're a woman and you then just are why on earth would you need any sort of support service beyond someone to dole out any meds or surgery you want.

Floella I'm so sorry your child is going through a rough time. I hope she finds peace and happiness in however she chooses to live however I don't think denying biological reality is helpful at all.

I agree, trans women are at risk in enclosed male spaces, just as women would be if they had to use them.

With that in mind, why would trans women support a law change that would allow any sexual predator access to women's spaces just by self declaring that they are a woman? This puts trans women at risk too.

There are currently men who go to far more trouble than completing a form to abuse and assault women. Why shouldn't that be a concern?

linning

gifted with the right part

Oh my god I don’t even know where to start with this. It is NOT a privilege or an advantage to have been born female, I have not been gifted with The right part. Also what that hell does ‘the right part’ mean???

the hurtful comments such as 'woman have no penis' etc
That is a biological fact. A penis is a male sex characteristic, therefore only men can have a penis. If a person finds facts hurtful then that is their problem, no one elses.

I'm wondering the same tammy

I mean all the people who have undergone medical intervention and spent years living as a transwoman, aren't they going to end up having to re define themselves. How do they feel about all the people who will just he abke to sit at home fill it a form online and instantly be granted access to places trans women have been unable to for years.

Aren't they going to feel they wasted their time and money when anyone can do it with no effort and still be in a women s locker room unchallenged

Also linning you seem to be assuming that posters don’t know any trans people, this is far from true.
A lot of the posters are lgbt allies or are lesbians, hell we even have some bonafide trans women too.
My mother was a lesbian so I was brought up right in the heart of the lgbt community and have been around transwomen my whole life, some of our closest family friends are trans women.
If you listen to what is being said people want trans women to be respected and free to live their lives with dignity and in the manner they choose but not at the detriment of women.
As a radical feminist I don’t believe in gender, it’s a social construct created by the patriarchy to structure a power system where men stayed in control. It’s meaningless, what’s between your legs has nothing at all to do with your personality or how you should dress, which job you should do or what toys you like. Gender is dangerous to both men and women and should be fought against at every turn.
Sex on the other hand is biologically real, it exists and has also been used as a way to oppress women.
Gender doesn’t exist but sex does and until we can live in a utopian land where the biological sex of man is no longer the more violent sex then we need sex segregated spaces.

By saying we are no longer allowed sex segregation and must instead pander to this made up idea of gender identity we are literally saying that females will no longer be able to meet without allowing a male to be present.

Trans women are women, they may not have been born with the right genitalias

No they are not. They are what they perceive is a woman, but biologically they will never be a woman.

As for saying women don’t have a penis is offensive, come off it! Since when is stating a fact offensive?

Why is it that pretty much every transwoman who speaks about their experience, reduces womanhood to wearing dresses, heels and make up and other shallow but stereotypically female things?

It makes no sense to me, as a woman who rarely wears any of those things. Putting a dress and some make up on doesn’t suddenly make a man a woman. By the same token, does the fact that I mostly wear trousers and hoodies make me a man? Of course it bloody doesn’t, it makes me a woman who wears what she finds most comfortable.

And this is where I feel the problem stems from, especially for children who are ‘trans’. They feel there is something wrong with them because they don’t conform to gender stereotypes. Why is no one coming out and saying “you know what? It’s ok to be a female who wears trousers and has short hair. It’s ok to be Male, to wear skirts and have long hair. You don’t need artificial hormones so that you can do these things”.

The whole thing is bonkers.

Stating biological fact is not hurtful. This is a big part of the issue. It may be deeply distressing for a trans person with dysphoria (although increasingly the trans lobby are stating that dysphoric individuals are a very small proportion of their number and calling trans individuals 'truscum' for saying transgender means only those with gender dysphoria.)

Mental health is based on being able to cope with reality. The distress of not having the reality you want cannot be overcome by guilting and indeed legislating others into forced lying to try and assuage the distress of people experiencing dysphoria. Indeed many older transsexual people who have lived as women for decades, not to mention people now detransitioning, have explained repeatedly that eventually it has to be faced that it is not true. A man cannot become a woman.

I am all for live and let live, but I will not be forced to collude in the pretence that women can have penises. It's plain fact that they can't. I am very sympathetic that to some this is a devastating truth and they sincerely believe they would be happy if I'd lie, but no one group has the right to force another to lie and collude to keep them happy in the face of facts and science. To imply I'm doing something heartless and wrong by stating facts is what makes much of the trans lobby agenda feel abusive.

Delete you've pretty much written exactly what I feel about this.

Someone earlier on this thread or similar asked what exactly it is about being a woman that transwomen are identifying with. I'm yet to see a simple answer that makes any sense.

It really annoys me.

There is far far more to being a woman than wearing feminine clothing and make up. It’s like some sort of weird adult dress up game. Except it’s not a game is it, because women’s rights are being slowly eroded at the expense of a few men who feel wearing a dress makes them a woman.

The trans community should be campaigning for their own safe spaces, not invading our safe spaces.

Transwoman have no idea what it’s like to be born a woman, to go through life being raised and socialised as a woman, and they never will. Just like I don’t know what it’s like to be a man and all the socialisation that goes with that. I’m not sorry if anyone finds that offensive.

Someone earlier on this thread or similar asked what exactly it is about being a woman that transwomen are identifying with. I'm yet to see a simple answer that makes any sense

You won't see an answer. They can never give one. They just plop onto a thread, shout "transphobes, so much hate on here, why is this allowed to stand blah blah blah" and then vanish.

You missed "why is mn promoting this, this is literally a hate crime" and "you clearly have no understanding of advanced biology"... 😂

How could I forget the hate crime, and the "literal violence"!

It's almost interesting that not one of these "you're so transphobic" posters are ever able to come back and say, look, this is my definition of a woman it's x, y and z. I'm fairly certain I wouldn't agree, but you could at least see what they are basing their opinion on.

Definitions? - didn't we have one yesterday? 'Anyone who feels like a woman is - literally, biologically, everything-y - a woman'.

Ergo, a woman is nothing. Empty vessel. To be appropriated.

I am so angry.

The thin end of the wedge is getting thicker.

So many thoughtful posts on here. Thank you.

I do think that some of the people who dislike 'trans' and consider them all to be aggressive woman-hating male predators in frocks have never had much to do with any trans people who are just going about their lives, and judge them by the one or two rather unpleasant examples who have a talent for attention-seeking (Lily Madigan springs to mind).

So if people like Lily Madigan are in the minority - why is the trans community not doing more to champion an agenda that doesn't involve hard-line TRA "if you believe you are" agenda?

So if people like Lily Madigan are in the minority - why is the trans community not doing more to champion an agenda that doesn't involve hard-line TRA "if you believe you are" agenda?

They're terrified of the hardliners and of the transphobes out there. It's a rock and a hard place.

What I dont understand is why can trans people/person be called whatever they want ie non identifying / gender neutral / trans woman etc. When women say that we just want to be called women we get called TERFS, trans haters etc.
Why are we being denied our preference? Is it because we are women?

Yes Jaynesworld, it is exactly because we are women.

ferntwist...

Do not ever talk about facts when dealing with emotional manipulation, for dubious ends, of trans charities. Recruitment is key.

Suicidal ideation is thought to occur in over 60% of people with ASD ((reports earlier this year). I can well believe that the figures for transgender people are around 50%, even if the much quoted Stonewall figures themselves are crap. Life can be very hard for the socially different.

It's because we're not allowed to define ourselves as a cohesive group by our biology. To do so is supposedly trans exclusionary.

But from a completely neutral standpoint, why is defining by biology exclusionary, yet defining by gender isn't? I feel less of a woman and excluded when women are defined by gender norms (I mostly wear trousers & wear makeup about 4x a year on a night out), but that's ok I guess as I'm just a woman. But I just told you how I'm less of a woman... just shows how stupidly circular this discourse is. It comes back to needing biology as an anchor point to understand WHY women are oppressed in the first place.

Also, woman are happy to include TIFs in the biological definition; male trans advocates wish to exclude TIMs, so surely they are equally as trans exclusionary?

The faultline comes down to subjective gender identity vs objective material reality. It goes far beyond feminism even, into epistemological philosophy - how do we know what we know and what is real. I've had arguments with twatters in the past few days who believe that sexual dimorphism is a social construct... like the whole of (sexual) biology only exists because human minds can rationalise and categorise it. Like it doesn't exist empirically outside of human observation

Reposting this extract from 1984 to illustrate

"Only the disciplined mind can see reality, Winston. You believe that reality is something objective, external, existing in its own right. You also believe that the nature of reality is self-evident. When you delude yourself into thinking that you see something, you assume that everyone else sees the same thing as you. But I tell you, Winston, that reality is not external. Reality exists in the human mind, and nowhere else."