LBC.... Trans women and non trans women.

[therealposieparker]

AIBU to expect us to be called women?

At first we're cis, then non men and now non-trans?

What the hell is happening?

I can see two sides to this, if I may say so:

On the one side, it's incredibly frustrating to see some in the trans lobby simply bully their way into female areas of safe space, debate and even accolades. A famous reality TV person who consciously identities as a male for years, transitions and immediately is awarded Woman of the Year - that's going to be difficult for many to accept, when there were hundreds of other prominent women fighting for women's rights daily. For too long, trans people have been belittled and abused, but recently it feels as if there is a forced shaming of women into accepting things that may not be right for all (changing spaces etc). I get that.

On the other hand, there's a funny cruelty amongst a minority of the posts here, with some saying "even if you transition fully to a biological identification of woman, you still had a journey to get here, which makes you not a woman at all".

Fine, that's a viewpoint, but these people are trying to transition fully to womanhood. In which case would you like those people to do - wear a coloured star for the rest of their lives, to prove that they had a journey and so were never born as female, and therefore don't deserve the "privileges" despite having the genitalia and mentally identifying?

This is the stuff where I'm getting slightly concerned. Do you mean that if you transition fully, you're never actually going to be accepted as a woman, therefore we need a "third space" where trans people exist?

The argument and problem refers to the small number of people who are aggressive and violent to women, insist on forcing their language on women, refuse to listen to women, and want access to resources aimed at women.

And are the politically powerful face of the trans movement, who are advising government on policy and lobbying very successfully indeed. Note: the government has liaised and invited to select committee meetings a trans lobby group (action for trans health) who actively support and promote using violence to punish and silence women who question them. The evidence is plain on the internet to see. I've shown it to my MP to ask why the government is being advised by a group who advocate violence and intimidation to achieve a political aim, as the word for that is terrorism. He has not answered. This to me is not ok.

I wish I had the luxury of being bored with this tedious crap, but this insanity is likely to become law if women don't wake up and give this some serious critical thought. Please read some Miranda Yardley, she is a personal hero of mine, a trans women whose is tirelessly working to show the real problems and dangers in the TRA agenda for trans people and women and girls. Please read the extremely intelligent and well reasoned posts on many threads from transwomen mumsnetters.

these people are trying to transition fully to womanhood. In which case would you like those people to do - wear a coloured star for the rest of their lives, to prove that they had a journey and so were never born as female, and therefore don't deserve the "privileges" despite having the genitalia and mentally identifying?

That's a bit of emoting while skirting facts isn't it? The point is that no one who is not female can transition fully to womanhood. It's not possible. Womanhood is not a 'privilege' that can be handed over to a man, and it being seen as such indicates the problem here.

celebrate being trans. Have third spaces. Great, I'll help campaign for that gladly, trans refuges, trans bathroom spaces, trans changing facilities, trans groups, I fought for gay rights thirty years against as a young lesbian and I'll gladly help with this. But no, woman can't be appropriated or 'awarded' to a man and women's spaces are needed for women. And erasing me as a lesbian or insisting I have to give sex to a man because he names himself a lesbian isn't happening. That isn't progressive, it's appalling.

Women having boundaries is not something generally enjoyed by men who find those boundaries inconvenient to their getting what the feel entitled to. That does not mean women are in the wrong for having boundaries.

Isn't it erasing for transwomen to be referred to as women? I mean, growing up as transgender is reportedly a very difficult experience and I can't imagine how difficult it must be to transition and how this impacts on your life. It all seems a bit like people who claim to be colourblind regarding race - that's not acceptable at all.

And although I have every sympathy for trans people and believe that they should have the legal right to live free from discrimination and abuse, womanhood and manhood are not titles that can be earned through effort, hormones or surgery. And not all trans people want to lose that distinction but are frankly scared to say so.

And more importantly, if this is not about male privilege and men steamrolling women once again, why do I never see aggressive "transmen are men" tweets? Why don't I see a small group of transmen insisting that the definition of the word "man" is changed to incorporate those with vulvas? What do you think men would make of that?

This is all about male entitiement and privilege.

buckets none of this is progressive at all, it's the most regressive movement I've seen in a long time, wrapped up in a progressive bow.

When babies and toddlers are thought to be showing signs of being trans because they want a pink blanket or toy cars, we are being forced back to the 50s. In fact it's so regressive I'm amazed anyone can think that supporting this is progressive.

Picklemepopcorn Nobody insist that you refer to yourself as "cisgender" or a "non-trans woman" or any other rubbish. Call yourself just "a woman" if you want, nobody cares, you are entitled to refer to yourself the way you want, you cannot on the other end control how people refer to you in conversation and else. Trans people would love to be seen and called by their prefer pronouns / the gender they identify as, yet many people on here have made it very clear they aren't willing to do that, why should trans people refer to you the way you want them to refer to you when you /others aren't willing to do the same.

I may not like someone calling me a twat, may not identify or believe that I am a twat but can't stop people calling me one if they so wish to. It's unfortunate but it's life. Strangers referring to you as cisgender (so a woman born with female genitalias) or "non-trans" (which you also are) is barely the end of the world. Nobody is forcing you to use those words to refer to yourself but, once again, you can't control other people's choice of words.

How many of those transpeople do you know? How many have you talked to? Media like to stir shit and aggravate things, if anything transpeople are the one who make me appreciate being a woman the most. While I spend my days wishing my period away and complaining about women related issues, transpeople remind me that some people would really much like to have been "lucky" enough to experience that first hand.

You and I won't be able to agree because you are discussing the fact that trans women want to access ressources made for women. Trans women are women, they may not have been born with the right genitalias but if you can't see why trans women want to have access to resources aimed at other women then you understand nothing about being transgender and probably shouldn't even be debating on the topic.

Trans women also only make up for half of the population of the trans community (which in itself only make up for about 1% (!) of the population.

A lot more people than transwomen are affected by the bathroom /changing room issue than transwomen and by the hurtful comments such as '' woman have no penis" etc.. That are spewed on here, not least starting with intersex people and hermaphrodites. Sure they aren't a big part of the population but they exist nonetheless so where are THEY suppose to change? Trans men are also affected by it. If you are going to force transwomen to stick to male bathrooms then you are also forcing Transmen to stick to female bathrooms, effectively keeping MALES within female bathrooms and changing room. Can't you see the irony? Even if you were to argue that Transmen are women you are still actively fighting against those "women", forcing a label on them, refusing to listen to them, forcing them to stick to bathroom and changing room they feel uncomfortable going into, and denying them the right to access the resources they need. Can you really not see how ironic and hypocritical that is??? Or is feminism only suppose to be dedicated to women who are born women and identify as such and everybody else can just fuck off regardless of them having a vagina and or identifying as woman?

There’s no other sort of women than ‘women who are born women’.

Well, legally if a man transitions, has a GRC them the person is a woman in the eyes of the law.

That doesn't mean that their biology, socialisation or psychological development have changed into those of women though.

sleighbellend Okay then if Transmen are women, why would it be fine for them to be refered to in ways they dislike, forced to share bathrooms /changing room with a gender they don't necessarily feel comfortable sharing yet it would be horrendous for other women to do the same?

It also doesn't answer my question as in to where hermaphrodites and intersex people are supposed to get dress and pee though.

Sorry I am being thick but what is CIS?

No, it wouldn’t be right to force them (although I wouldn’t object to trans men in female spaces) - they can go to men’s services if they feel comfortable doing that, or set up their own services for trans men.

Intersex is very complicated and not related. I went to school (all girls school) with a woman who has since found out she's intersex - had no idea until she had fertility investigations in her 30s. It would really depend on the specifics of their condition, since it varies so much, but it's really not the same issue.

I actually think it belongs in the debate TammySwansonTwo as some people on here have been very vocal about how women have to have the perfect female genitalias as well as XX chromosomes to be considered female to access female spaces and resources so I think it's important to address what it may mean for people who aren't born with either of those things or with both set of genitalias etc... As can be the case for intersex people and/or hermaphrodites and ask ourselves where they fit in society and what rights do they have/are entitled to.

sleighbellend so you think Transmen should have more rights to access opposite sex spaces (if you see them as women) or same-sex spaces ( if you see them as men) than transwomen?Why is that? Is that because they were were born with a vagina? I am genuinely curious as to why you think some people should have more rights than others.

Linning as has already been explained, the term hermaphrodite is incredibly offensive. Why would you use it? Especially when you were virtue signaling. 'Can you really not see how ironic and hypocritical that is???'

English isn't my first language so I used the only word I knew in English to refer to people born with that condition, I have no problem changing my wording and referring to the condition (people affected by it) in other terms, obviously!

Fair enough, but maybe you should have educated yourself before opining. Not only is that term offensive, but intersex people are not trans and are strongly against being dragged into trans issues. Please show them some respect.

I've never heard anyone who's gender critical arguing against the rights or legitimacy of intersex people.

The discussion here is about language defining subsets of human beings, not about bathrooms and changing rooms.

No one has, Tammy, it's the classic 'hide behind intersex people because we don't have a valid argument' maneuver.

For christ sake ! I have made a clear distinction between trans people and intersex people, I expended the debate because I have spent time with intersex people where trans issues and the issues regarding bathroom / changing room was debated and some said how comments such as the ones made in this thread by other posters hurt them as it doesn't suit their situation yet they do fully identify as either male or female. Nobody is suggesting they are transgender (and definitely not me!).

I think I have enough respect for them as I do everybody else and care about them and their rights as much as I do for the rights of others. If, by mistake I have offended some people who happen to be intersex with any of my posts though, I definitely do apologize as it, of course, wasn't my intention!

Floella.

Talking therapies and watching and waiting are two alternatives to body mutilation and a life time of drugs.

I'd probably cancel any access to the internet too.

And I think I have given A LOT of arguments as in to why I feel the way I feel and my thoughts on the subject if you actually care to read my posts and skip through the intersex part (that just happen to be sentence long) so I can't see how I am hiding behind intersex people when most of my posts are about transgender people and the use of "cisgender"and" non-transwomen" .

Yes, I do think that Linning, because it’s males (however they identify) who carry out the vast majority of sexual offences - not females.

Linning, If you are aware that intersex people are completely different to trans people why bring them up at all? I apologise if you genuinely did not realise how offensive it was to make that comparison and use that term, but we see this tactic a lot. A poster drags in intersex people as some kind of 'gotcha', when it's anything but. It's a horrible appropriation of issues faced by an entirely separate group. If the trans argument has merit then it can be debated on it's own terms, it shouldn't need pointless and offensive whataboutery.

Floellabumbags they are forums out there exclusively made for LGBT people and their families. Empty Closet come to mind for example, talk about it to your daughter, there are plenty of trans teens/adults (who are at different stages of their transition) on them that will be able to provide her with the support she needs as well as to you as a mother.

You may also want to redirect her towards movies such as the Danish girl or webseries such as "her story" (haven't actually watch that one but you can find it on YouTube and I have personally only heard good things about it) so she gets to see great positive content about transwomen.

Sorry to hear she is having to face à lot of transphobia and is feeling suicidal

Linning, if a transman chooses to use a male loo, that's up to them; it's not much of a threat to any male using it, more a risk knowingly taken by the transman.

The situation is not symmetrical. Women are on average at more risk from males than vice versa, by dint of size, strength and penissyness, before you get on to any social or socialization factors.