To really not want daughters?

[AngeloMysterioso]

DH and I will be starting TTC soon, and have been talking about how we’d raise our children. And as we’ve discussed it, I’ve begun to realise that I really don’t want to have any girls.

Don’t get me wrong, I think having a daughter is in itself a wonderful thing. It’s more an issue of the world I would be raising a daughter in.

You’ve got trans rights activists erasing women everywhere you turn- women’s spaces being opened to anyone who calls themselves a woman, a 19 year old male is now a CLP Women’s officer, guidance in Scotland being issued saying if a student isn’t comfortable sharing a changing room with a trans pupil they should change somewhere else (obviously I know that would apply to boys too).

Sexual harassment and assault fucking everywhere. I’ve genuinely lost count of the number of times I’ve been grabbed, groped or catcalled. I know more women who’ve had some sort of encounter of that kind than haven’t. And of course, the victim blaming and slut shaming that occurs around it.

Those are just a few examples.

The more I think about it, the less I feel like I’d happy to bring a girl up in such a deeply misogynistic society. I just don’t see it getting any better. If anything, it’s getting worse.

AIBU?

Actually a lot of these negative assumptions that men by nature are bastards makes me quite angry. I have two sons. They are both extremely pro women and extremely sensitive, kind and caring. They are also vulnerable and one is very fragile. My daughter is much tougher emotionally and probably more resilient. I understand that she is at risk from sexual assault and being exploited. But not all men are generic and programmed to be bastards. It does good men a disservice and makes it so much harder for men like my sons to live a life where they are not ashamed to be men.

@tombstoneteeth

raven - I did NOT say that he hit her. Read what I wrote. He didn't. She bit him and drew blood, and punched him. He walked away. She pushed him TO THE LIMIT by the biting. Care to apologise for the comment?

No I bloody well will NOT apologise.

You said naff-all about your son's wife biting him and drawing blood, and then PUNCHING him - and him walking away. You are drip feeding and adding stuff now, because you've been called out.

You said 'she pushed him to the limit to show violence towards her'

You said nothing about her being violent - and him walking away (supposedly,) until I and several others pulled you up on what you said, and now you have completely changed your story. Why should anyone believe your second version of events? You would have said this in the first place if it had been true.

I repeat, I hope your son - and you - are ashamed of yourselves.

*jeezelouise"

I didn't feel it necessary to give all the details, because I had no intention of giving the full narrative, until I was pulled up for apparent obfuscation. Read it again.

Neither I, nor my son, have any reason to be ashamed. He never raised a finger to her. He would NEVER harm anyone. Vent your spleen on someone else.

.

I have boys who are amazing bur still quite young. I worry about their future with the peer pressure to take dumb risks, mental health issues in young men, male violence etc. I know we can try our best to bring them up to become lovely considerate people but there's only so much parents can do for a child once they leave home. I just hope I've given them enough tools to work with.

Actually a lot of these negative assumptions that men by nature are bastards makes me quite angry

Please direct me to the post which states that men by nature are bastards.

But not all men are generic and programmed to be bastards.

Again, please direct me to the post which states that all men are programmed to be bastards.

And no, addressing the fact that there are some men out there who are twats, sex offenders and rapists is not the same thing as saying that every men out there is out to get us.

*every man.

Pannacott I don’t need a fucking therapist to explain to me why my experiences of sexual assault would make me want to protect a daughter from experiencing the same thing. Your suggestion is offensive.

Maybe I’m being a bit thick here - can you explain why the suggestion was offensive?

The reason why I think it might be relevant is that your experiences are currently highly salient to you, to the extent that you fear having daughters in case they experience the same. You sound pretty traumatised. Many women have been sexually assaulted, and will continue to be. It’s awful. But they deserve to have some peace from a past experience, from a daily fear of it happening, and a daily replaying of it in their minds. That sounds more like post traumatic stress disorder.

The other thing is that the salience of your own experiences means you may have a strong bias about the horrors of women being sexually assaulted being worse than experiences men go through. You may feel differently about having sons if your boyfriend was stabbed on a night out, or a cousin hanged himself. These things happen far more to men. I really don’t think it is much easier being male, on an individual level. I do think it’s easier being male on a collective level, that’s what the stats generally tell us. But the variation is so wide, that class, education, intelligence, a loving and supportive upbringing are more important than sex.

There are quite a few posters on here who have both sons and daughters and appear to be getting quite offended on their poor downtrodden sons behalfs that society views them as evil rapists.

I will ignore the fact that nobody on this thread has even suggested that all men are rapists or abusers (except of course said posters getting offended on their sons behalf ) for a second and I will ask you these people a question instead.

Do you really not advise your daughter(s) to look out for herself and not put herself in risky situations? I bet you do because, let's face it, nobody tells their daughters that they should get as drunk as they want and go wherever they want to whenever they want. People do tend to drill these things into women's and girls heads, including by their parents, from a young age.

So is it therefore not slightly hypocritical to get offended and upset on behalf of your son when people are wary of him when at the same time you're encouraging your daughter to do exactly the same to other people's sons?

People can't have it both ways. Either women need to keep ourselves safe or we don't.

If far rather be a woman than a man. I have 2 sons and a daughter (in their early 20s). Dd is a tough independent young woman (had had the same boyfriend side she was 15 but they live very independent lives due to long uni course). I love them all dearly but I don't think I particularly worry about any of them. They're capable young people making their own way in the world.

You may feel differently about having sons if your boyfriend was stabbed on a night out

One of the key differences is that we don't tend to blame men who are assaulted by strangers to the same extent we do women who are assaulted.

If a man is attacked then nobody questions wtf he was doing there, if he was drunk, what he was wearing, etc. People don't view him as being partially responsible and that he should have taken steps to prevent it happening. The blame is (rightly) put squarely on the perpetrator.

The same however cannot be said for a woman who is assaulted. People will question wtf she was doing there, if she had been drinking, why she didn't take steps to keep herself safe, etc. People will of course blame the perpetrator but the woman's behaviour and actions leading up to the event will be held under a lot more scrutiny and questioning than a man who is assaulted will.

I didn't care a jot whether boy or girl as long as they lived (multiple losses). As it turned out I have 2 girls 3 boys. Wouldn't change a thing. I do worry about the future and hate the way I have always felt judged by my looks.

@tombstoneteeth

I didn't feel it necessary to give all the details, because I had no intention of giving the full narrative, until I was pulled up for apparent obfuscation. Read it again.

Hmmm, bit convenient. I read your posts perfectly well the first time thanks. And it was clear what you said...

She pushed him to the limit to show violence towards her.

Neither I, nor my son, have any reason to be ashamed. He never raised a finger to her. He would NEVER harm anyone. Vent your spleen on someone else.

That is not what you said in your first post. I repeat; you said.

She pushed him to the limit to show violence towards her.

You cannot deny you wrote this. You admitted your son showed violence towards his wife. You ADMITTED IT. It's there in black and white, (on page 6, at 22.11pm on Monday 20th November,) and there is no getting away from it. Several others have seen it and have also commented on it. Not just me.

So quit calling me a liar, and making out I am making things up, and just accept what you said. You are looking somewhat foolish denying what you said, when it's there on page 6!

I will leave spleen venting to you and your son.

You sound pretty traumatised. Many women have been sexually assaulted, and will continue to be. It’s awful. But they deserve to have some peace from a past experience, from a daily fear of it happening, and a daily replaying of it in their minds. That sounds more like post traumatic stress disorder.

I don’t have a daily fear of it happening. It’s happened plenty of times in the past, and sadly I assume it will probably happen again in the future. If I lived in fear of it I’d never leave the house. Nor do I replay my experiences daily in my head. I certainly don’t have PTSD. I’m not traumatised, I’m mostly just pissed off, which I think is quite reasonable. Certainly doesn’t mean I need therapy.

The other thing is that the salience of your own experiences means you may have a strong bias about the horrors of women being sexually assaulted being worse than experiences men go through.

Absolutely nowhere have I said that it’s worse, only far more prevalent, which is a statistical fact. I’m in no position to judge whether it’s worse as I have never been a man.

You may feel differently about having sons if your boyfriend was stabbed on a night out, or a cousin hanged himself. These things happen far more to men.

I have a close friend who was stabbed on a night out. His friend, who he was with, was also stabbed and was killed. When I was a teenager a friend of mine hung himself. So I’m under no illusions about such things.

If you have a daughter you’ll worry about her of course but you’ll just live your life as normal you’ll find you won’t spend every waking moment worrying about these things, because believe me as a mother of 2 daughters, they will give you plenty of other things to worry about as well.
And you’ll worry yourself sick about your son too just about different things.

Some people in this thread like SpareASquare with her super helpful I have girls. And I have boys. Raised them all without your brand of hysteria. Girls are confident and happy and well able to deal with any shade of misogyny thrown their way. comment seem to think that their daughters’ confidence will act as some magical force field preventing such things from ever happening to them. Whilst simultaneously calling me hysterical for being realistic about it

FFS, get a grip OP.
No, there is no magical force field but neither will they be sitting back wringing their hands and just accepting that this is just what the world is like.
They are not going to be spending their time whining about how unfair it is and how it's only getting worse.
Same as my boys will NOT and are not silent over the misogynistic attitudes they see.
So, yeah, I have both. Have made my contribution by making sure I raised them all to be confident enough to stand up for what is right and fair and equitable. Is that guaranteed to keep them safe? Of course not. I fear for all them in different ways but I don't let it control me.
What it does do is give them the tools to make a positive contribution to a society that definitely needs it rather than just accept that " I just don’t see it getting any better. If anything, it’s getting worse" We need to raise our humans to want to MAKE IT BETTER
Your 'I don't want daughters because...' IS bordering on hysteria

OP - Anger is good, anger is behind people raising awareness about casual and non casual sexual violence. It is horrific, I hope things are changing. I hope these public conversations mean that women feel more empowered to express disgust and push for action as soon as harassment starts. I hope that there is a change of culture whereby men would feel ashamed (and be shamed by people they care about) if they were to try to behave in these ways.

I’m very pleased to hear you aren’t traumatised by your experiences, I’m sorry that you were offended that I raised that. I’m also sorry to hear about your experiences of the ways men suffer disproportionately too. But like you say, you’ve experienced being a female who’s sexually assaulted, not a male who’s had those male biased experiences, and it’s easier for you to be aware of them, they are more personally relevant. If you had sons you might find the fear of bad things happening to them, suddenly just as salient.

My daughter showed pretty early on she was her own person and continues to this day, my son respects women and I know lots of families where the same is true. You will and your partner will be the ones teaching her from day one and you are allready on the look out so she will be prepared. Also the things that have been going on for years
are coming into the open now and being condemned so it is to be hoped that tolerance will be low and you grew up during the period of sexual assault being everywhere, were you subject to it? The instinct to protect is very strong so I think whatever you have you will have concerns. You are committed to giving your child a good life that’s the best you can do the fact that you don’t have total control is a fact of life,.

I agree with so many other posters. Parenting isn't a passive act. You have a direct impact, as their mother, on how they will grow up.

I have 3 sons and 1 daughter. All of my children are the loves of my life (and I could go on about my sons forever but this is a thread about DDs) and my daughter is literally awesome. I'm so, so proud of her. She's independent, fiery, extremely sporty, a great student, hilariously funny and sooooo more comfortable in her own skin than I ever was as a teenager. And she's like that, partly because of nature but partly because DH and I have raised her to be like that.

As much as I ADORE my sons, my daughter has enhanced my life in a way I couldn't even have imagined possible. And I get to be her Mum. How great is that?! The fact you're even worrying about this shit shows you'll be fine. And she will be too.

Its no wonder that people take the piss out of MN.Privileged women hand wringing over bringing a baby girl into a sheltered, privileged, comfortable world. Get a grip
Bloody hell MrsDV, it's uncanny. Every time I go to make a post you've encapsulated what I want to say perfectly.
There is a thread on here about a teacher saying 'Use your common sense' The levels of common sense in this world are plummeting by the day.

I love being a woman, despite all the issues we face. Who will change them if not us?
I have. 2 sons and a daughter and I will raise them all to be strong, proud and independent, fighting for change.
Also I'm pretty sure that sexual harassment hasn't increased we're just more aware of it now. That may seem depressing but awareness is good. People forget that marital rape was legal not so long ago. I'm sure many woman were groped back in the 30s/40s/50s etc but it was seen as no big deal. We now know better!

Very pleased I have 2 boys mainly because I don’t deal with whiny girls very well and they are more affectionate so I’ve been told.

One of the lamest comments I’ve ever read on here.

You are being melodramatic these things you are banging on about has no reflection on how you raise a daughter you are basically wanting to be a martyr to your sex I don't think you should ttc until you have sorted your issues out. How would you cope if your fictional son declared himself trans and wanted to live as a woman?

If it frightens you to consider our patriarchal society brutalising your daughter and turning her into a victim, I would encourage you to also fear it brutalising your son and turning him into a monster.

You will need to actively parent any child to combat the toxicity patriarchy will bring into their lives. Teaching a son to remain kind and loving is not easier than teaching a daughter to be wary and resilient.

Also while it's broadly true that most girls will be in more physical danger than most boys, and that most boys will be at a greater risk of engaging in violence than most girls, there are also some pretty big exceptions to that rule. If your child doesn't conform to gender stereotypes or heteronormative standards in some way, then your son will probably be at more physical risk than your daughter.

That raising a daughter triggers more of your personal fears is not unreasonable. But I do think objectively there is plenty to fear for any child's future under patriarchy.

You sound a bit mental.

I'm a woman and love being one. Men face their own issues too.

I also think therapy may help op. It comes across that you are deeply traumatised by whatever experiences you have had to the extent that you “really”don’t want daughters but are trying to conceive.

Sexual violence is estimated at 20 percent of the femal population by rape crisis, taking into account those who don’t report, so the overwhelming majority of women do not suffer sexual violence in their lives in the uk. Being able to contextualise it and bring a daughter up to protect herself but not live in fear is important.

Your posts are confused, moving from transgender focus in your op, to being grabbed by men, to being sexually assaulted, whatever it is, that’s causing uou to feel the way you do, getting help can only be beneficial.

The vast majority of us as you can see by the responses, love being women, we love our daughters , our female friends, Our female family members, and can’t countenance your view it’s better not to have female children, it’s extreme and concerning to put it mildly.

So please strongly consider getting therapy to help you through your struggles, for your own sake as well as any future children you may have, be they Male or female. 💐