Re: staff visiting employer in hospital

[ChangeyNamey1893]

My MIL recently became critically ill after a long illness. She was cared for at home by a maid.

She got very ill and eventually had to go in to hospital where she sadly died a week after being admitted. During the week she was in hospital we only had immediate family visiting (her husband, her children, their partners, her brothers and her husband's siblings).

Later when arranging the funeral the maid was told which days would be best for her to attend. She had a bit of a go at FIL and made it clear she was annoyed and upset that she hadn't been allowed to visit in hospital (he ignored this).

Were we being unreasonable to not have her visit? I wouldn't expect to go and visit my boss on his deathbed! This maid although nice is prone to being over emotional and also a source of irritation and exasperation for MIL.

Odd to make a fuss after she died, I mean.

Oh and Italian it was my mother in law, not my mum. So a bit different. The family is large so we all got breaks but it was nice - we sat with her and reminisced about pleasant memories. Not sure if she could hear but it was a relaxed and happy atmosphere.

You are right it is rather harsh, I think it comes from years of watching elite classes treat their maids like they are slightly sub-human. Happy to gain maximum value from them but reluctant for the most part to give them the same courtesy's they extend to everyone else in a household. Of course a death will be harder my main point was that it will be harder for the maid.

I do think that the FIL will be the key decision maker here though. What has happened has happened. Apologies all round and moving on is all that can happen.

Also wanted to add that if you actually mean a part time cleaner then I think that visiting would be odd, I am making the assumption of a live in member of staff.
Grief is likely to impact you all.

Mummyoflittledragon I am surprised at you, that is not kind, IMHO. The OP has lost her mum! Being paid to care for someone is not the same as being family, even if you are very fond of them. She was only the carer for a few days. Cooking and cleaning for someone is not being a carer. The OP has made it clear this was in line with her mum's wishes.

Yes, sorry MIL, I realise.

Mummyoflittledragon, she's lost her mother- in-law, but that is still a big deal. i love my MIL as a second mum, in fact the only one now as my mum is gone.

mumisnotmyname but you are projecting a bit if you think the OP is treating the maid in a certain way. It was the MIL's maid, or housekeeper or whatever.

"Happy to gain maximum value from them but reluctant for the most part to give them the same courtesy's they extend to everyone else in a household." I guess it depends what this means. Common curtesy and politeness should be extended to all. But if you are paying someone to cook or clean you would not expect to treat them as a sister or mum. I've been a cleaner and mothers help, and a live in au pair, and I was treated quite badly when I was an au pair, and hated it. So I do have a lot of sympathy for live in staff because you are kind of caught up with the family but not of it. but we don't know this is the case here.

Plus, as the OP is only the daughter in law, not the daughter maybe she was not actually consulted about who should visit.

"Also wanted to add that if you actually mean a part time cleaner then I think that visiting would be odd, I am making the assumption of a live in member of staff." Yes, me too.

Must go to bed. Night night. OP hope your dh is OK. I know this sounds dreadfully sexist but sometimes men seem to take death worse than women (massive sexism here, but maybe it's all that men don't cry stuff!).

mumisnotmyname we don't treat her like a sub-human, we treat her like a member of staff. Which she is.

She has a good deal - decent salary, healthcare, her own ensuite room. Plus additional emotional and financial support from MIL when required.

I personally wouldn't have a live in maid as the relationship is a minefield. But for this woman working as a live in maid for my ILs is a means for her to support her family and lift them out of poverty.

Thanks ItalianGreyhound, I've appreciated your posts.

My husband is doing ok thanks, he's very in touch with his emotions so has been able to cry and release some sadness. This was an inevitable outcome of her illness so we've had time to prepare.

*prepare emotionally I mean, practically we were not ready.

Same as us, mum had dementia for years, but when she went down hill it was all very quick. It is really quite hard and shocking and it was my first, and only, time of experiencing this level of up closeness with death and dying, it is very shocking and strange being with someone at the end of their life.

OP I am not saying that either you or your family have treated this lady in any particular way. Other than the one example you gave I have no idea how she was treated. I was agreeing with another poster that I was rather harsh in my response and trying to explain why I was. It was years of watching exploitation and really unequal relationships which were tolerated by people because they were trying to lift their families out of poverty. We had maids so I see how both sides end up in the relationship. I would like to think that we would have made a different choice. You posted in AIBU so your responses will be in that vein.

Of course it's an unequal relationship - how can it not be?

Did you have your maids eat dinner with you? Use your living room, facilities etc? Did you pay them the standard wage or bump it up to whatever you were getting paid so you'd be equals?

I'm aware of where I posted. Did I ever express surprise at the response I've gotten?

Italian
I know people born in SA, who had maids and gardeners growing up and have visited friends in China, who had a non live in maid. These people were talked about with strong affection and very much part of the family.

The attitude in ops posts about a maid, who lived in for 5 years is contrary to those SA friends displayed and one, which they reject. We had discussions on disparity and poverty in SA. My friend was a trained dietician and was heavily involved in impoverished communities.

I understand that ops mil didn’t want an emotional fuss made about her. I don’t think she had the right to choose others reactions to her pending death.

The maid is live in and supports her family. Idk if that means living away from children. This wouldn’t be an uncommon scenario if it is.

I find the way she is talked about upsetting. I understand she isn’t treated as subhuman. Rather “less than”. More so because couldn’t keep her emotions in check when she was staff and had no business being upset.

I don’t think she should have been given free reign to come and go as she chose. However, to have let her come to say goodbye would have been a kindness.

I don't think getting into a fight with someone who is grieving is a sensible action. So I will leave it at all paid relationships are unequal but my response to you was tempered by my years of viewing elite classes treating maids worse than they would treat employees in an office. I completely accept that your family may not have done that but my experience led me to give you a harsher response than I would usually.
In answer to your questions, I earned nothing so she earned more than me. Yes she often ate dinner with us although she laughed at my cooking and I am pretty sure she hated my food. Yes she watched tv in the tv room, she also had her own tv when she wanted to chill. She tried to teach us the language through tele novas. We all had ensuites, she was no different. I don't think our house had other facilities sadly. It is a challenge to balance a paid employee and a member of for family but after five years of living with your family I think it is sad that your parents maid didn't get a chance to say goodbye and she obviously thinks this as well. I hope you are all able to move on from this sad time.

Wowee

She lived with your MIL for five years. That’s longer than many marriages.

Of course my MIL could ask people not to cry in front of her! That was one of her wishes and we duly complied with it and made her final days as stress free as possible. It's not that the maid had no business being upset - of course she did. But the people for her to lean on emotionally at this time are not MIL, FIL or my husband.

Mumisnotmyname fair enough if that's how you chose to do it. We treat the maid as a member of staff. Personally I would never have a live in maid as I think it's a strange dynamic.

You didn't answer my question about salary. So you weren't earning but what about your partner? How did your partner's wages compare to your maids?

But for this woman working as a live in maid for my ILs is a means for her to support her family and lift them out of poverty.

Your ILs are not employing this woman as a form of charity, they are paying for a service which she is providing. Her wage will reflect that room/boarding are provided.

When you're in that situation I think you'll try and avoid anything unnecessarily stressful for your family member.

I do find it strange that FIL and his children got a woman who was a source of exasperation, irritation and annoyance to care for your MIL in her dying days instead of doing it themselves.

Did FIL explain to her that only immediate family were permitted to see MIL? Maybe that would have helped.

Why are you posting?

Yes I think your family were unreasonably harsh on this woman. She'd lived and worked with your MIL for 5 years - that's quite a long time to be with someone in their home.

I worked 2 days a week for an elderly gentleman for about a year and a half before he died - his wife not only kept me on afterwards for support but I was also asked to the funeral and the part afterwards. At no time was I made to feel "other", "less", or in the way. I'm sure that if he hadn't died very suddenly (heart attack) but had gone into hospital, I would have been allowed to visit as well.

Some people view staff as people, and others view them as staff. I think that's the difference.

The maid will also be grieving. It is a live in relationship that spanned five years. I have spent time working with live in carers of many kinds and they often become very close to the people they care for. Your attitude towards her is harsh and unfeeling.

" However, to have let her come to say goodbye would have been a kindness." I agree. But it does appear she may not have asked. And I also agree "I don’t think she had the right to choose others reactions to her pending death." But when people are dying their next of kin do tend to bend over backwards to try and meet their wishes, people do it in life and even in death. But I do understand OP why you respected her wishes.

You mentioned Africa and China. I know in Indonesia servants served families for generations. And at one time that would have been the same in England. But there are so many different relationships and ways of being.

ThumbWitchesAbroad surely staff are people who work for you! Do you think the OP doesn't view her as a person.

MudCity she was only caring for her for a few days before she died. It's not the same as a long term carer.

I think the OP was in a very difficult position, told not to get upset, told not to let others get upset and then faced with a non-family member who she knew would get upset, and may try and lean emotionally on the women who was actually dying. And possibly OP was not even consulted as to what should happen. And possibly the lady did not ask.

OP maybe as you are not so closely involved as your hubby and FIL you can be able to be more supportive of this lady. It seems clear your FIL won't be sympathetic to her, and maybe you can be.

OP, I'm an expat and have a live-in maid. She's a member of staff (we don't share meals or socialise together) but as others have said it's not a relationship you can compare to that of your lawyer because it's live in. I would certainly expect my maid to be included in the list of people visiting the hospital in this situation. They said, I'd also expect her to follow MIL's wishes and not cry in front of her. I would probably have given her a choice to visit and hold it together or not to visit.

It's the culture here to have a live-in maid and of the people I know with makes there are very few who I think would exclude a maid with this length of service from hospital in this situation. The ones I know who would tend to place a low value on their maid - very much a servant not an employee (and usually the maids don't stay long enough to have five years' service in that situation) . I'm not saying this is your thinking but the maid may well by particularly upset because she perceives that's the thinking.

For what it's worth, my friend's mother had the same part time carer for a couple of years prior to her death and the carer did come to the hospital. A relative'a cancer home visit nurse has also just visited that relative in a hospice (with wife and kids). It's really not that rare for employees to bid to in these circumstances.

Not much you can do now but I think she's owed an apology at least. Presumably it wasn't your decision though as it was your MIL not DM.

maid not make and visit not bid