To think we cannot afford a second baby :(

[winkletwinkletoes]

Currently feeling sad

Really want another baby in the next year or so. Have a 5 1/2 year old.

We both work full time. Joint income
Of around £2600 after tax. Our bills equate to about £2000 due to just buying a first house with eye watering interest rate

Realistically how can we afford another child if the childcare would be £500-£600 a month.

Got no family who can help... well not willing to help. Obviously long term we want a good quality of life and I can't see us being able to have both.

Can it be done or no???

OP just wanted to say you're getting a hard time here from everyone who is so holier than thou.

Truth is children always seem unaffordable to those who actually think about it but in truth you will find a way.

I completely agree it's not fair whilst some get a lot of benefits and others don't (take my cleaner for example on £700 a month benefits plus housing plus payments from her kids dads plus her earnings) whereas my sister works her butt off around childcare and struggles to get £700 because of what her husband earns which incidentally does not go anywhere near her. It sucks. I'll probably branded an unfeeling cow now. I couldn't give a shit. The system is abused. Help those in need yes but it must pay to be in work.

winkle don't rise to it. Your thread comes across badly initially - which I'm sure you can see if you read back - so posters are reacting to it, but you don't have to bite back.

It's OK. People can do good jobs and be good people and still feel frustrated by other people and wish their own lives were different.

The difference between you and your clients/service users is that you have a real shot at changing things for the better.

Challenge all your assumptions- about how much internet & Sky you need, about your phone tariffs, about your petrol & car & commuting costs, about your "general expenditure" (which everyone underestimates- everyone unless they're tracking it, because no one can keep all the petty amounts in their head, but they add up to a lot).

£2,600 with £800 on mortgage is doable for 2 DC, especially as your DP has increased earning potential soon-ish.

Don't be cross, be proactive. If you want it, there is a way.

Equally, there's nothing wrong with being cautious. But make yourself a plan and you'll feel better about everything.

This is derailing a bit. There is some very good advice on budgets though. I agree with what's the rush? In a year will your husband earn more and childcare cost less with your dd at school? Then no childcare costs while you are in nat leave.

OP I would suggest you go over to MSE and find the debt free wannabe board and produce a full statement of earnings and they will soon help you slash your outgoings.

Are you on a 2 year fix or 5 year? I’m hoping 2 years as if you could get down to 90% ltv (or lower) then your interest rate would drop considerably (and your payments would as well)

Car tax x 2 50? Both DH and I have older cars which cost about £180 each to tax (£360) or £30 per month. Many newer cars have much cheaper car tax.
Insurance x 2 80? Do you swop insurers for he best price each year. Often paying yearly is cheaper than monthly.
Car finance £130 - can you pay this off quicker with the spare £600 you have per month

Phone bills x2 £60?
Council tax, water,£200? How much is your council tax. Mine is £100 a month for band B and my water bill is £28 per month.
gas and electric I only pay £60pm. Sounds good but have you used Uswitch to check you are getting the best deal?

Sky with internet £45!! I agree internet is essential. However, could you get a better deal?

Policies that come with owning a home £30odd My top of the range Home insurance is £15 per month (which also cover insurance outside the home for two iPhones!)

Petrol x2 £200? Could you share a lift? Work from home more?

I only spend £200 per month on food

Then i had a sofa payment and wardrobe payment which will be done next year.£100? Could you pay this off earlier from your spare £600 per month?

usernamegone those figures with question marks were my estimates, not the OPs. To be fair to her she only listed a few figures. I just couldn't reconcile the total she'd suggested.

Usernamegone- good ideas. I'm on the cheapest tarif for gas and electric. I could shelve sky tbh... but internet is £20pm on money supermarket at least with the package I do have everything plus broadband. But yes I could halve that.

Petrol is dear as I have to do lots of visits during the day. We could car share next year some days.

Home insurance is 10 plus life insurance and then mortgage cover if we loose our jobs so that totals £20... £30 intotal.

Phone bills are £60.. each but we're dealing with that

Council tax and water is the same as yours.

Insurance is dearer as I bloomin got speeding ticket so points on liscence. so it's about £60 per month each. Did it through money supermarket.

Then outgoings for DS after school activities, hair cuts, clothing.

Hoping to pay odd finance off next year... trying to figure out car. But realistically I can't lower my bills unless I get rid of the car.

OP I had no choice as we haf twins on a joint income of £2200. I condensed to two days, childminder at £3ph for one day. grandparents one. They wouldnt sit at first but DH begged them can you do same?

Then I was made redundant. Our income was £1700 and mortgage 800. We shared a car, bought charity clothes and didnt holiday. I later found freelance work and found job when they started school.

It can be done. Go to one car, cancel sky and just get internet for under 30. Work on the grandmother and see if you can condense hors. This is too important.

£800pcm mortgage leaves £1200 left over! & you're sitting there moaning about your service users as if they have the same income as you do, without working. Why do I get the feeling you're likely "Miss Designer I have to show people we have everything/keep up with the Joneses". Either way you have a home husband and child, sneering at your service users whilst patronisingly going on about how you 'help and empower" them (what, can't they see how your nose is turned up...?), isn't going to get you what you want, is it?

Your DH will earn shedloads once he's qualified. At which point you'll likely be insufferable. But at least you'll have your 2nd child

Your work mileage will be paid back to you so only commute would be an expense from that point of view.
Do you definitely need 2 cars? We lived for years on DH's relatively low income with 3 kids. We have always managed with just one car. DH has done quite a bit of cycling as a result! There are times now where only having one car is a pain in the backside, with 3 teenagers and living in a small village with poor public transport, but it saves us so much money each year and we always find a way.

Winklet

I'm on the cheapest tarif for gas and electric. Are you on a fixed tariff? I find as soon as the fix ends the bills creap up. Magically I rang my power company to get some usage figures and told them they were too expensive and then they told me about a new tariff launched just 3 days ago saving £30 a month! Funnily enough they write to you and tell you about their cheaper tariffs!

I could shelve sky tbh... but internet is £20pm on money supermarket at least with the package I do have everything plus broadband. But yes I could halve that. Could you ring sky (if you are out of contract) and tell them you are cancelling as they are too expensive. I did this with Virgin Media and surprise surprise they rang me back a week later with a special half price offer just for me for phone, broadband, tv package. Funnily enough before I cancelled there were no cheaper offers available to me! .

Home insurance is 10 plus life insurance and then mortgage cover if we loose our jobs so that totals £20... £30. it is worth checking if you have life assurance (normally through your pension at work). However, you can never have enough insurance.

Phone bills are £60.. each but we're dealing with that blush. If you are out of contract could you sim only. Funnily enough your mobile phone provider will never point out there is often a cheap sim only option once you are out of contract!

Insurance is dearer as I bloomin got speeding ticket so points on liscence. envy so it's about £60 per month each. Did it through money supermarket. Yikes I feel your pain! Either you are young or live in a higher risk area. I almost cried when mine was £500 per year - 2.0l Car, sport version, 0 NCB plus 3 points.

Hoping to pay odd finance off next year - good

Oops I meant they never write to you to tell you about a cheaper tariff!

OP, I am guessing on that wage that you are not qualified. Even so working for an LA you usually (although not always these days) get an essential car users allowance and at the very least milage will be paid. Therefore petrol for work and to some extent insurance and car depreciation will be reimbursed. To be honest you are on a fair wage if you are working as a SWA/FSW.

It is a fact of life the vast majority of us our limited by our finances. Those of us who are qualified are paying back student loans, have higher union, pension, tax , NI contributions etc. I therefore understand it may not feel worth taking time out to qualify. I too felt I could only comfortably afford one child. Yep it feels unfair sometimes but there is a pay off of working in the public sector. I am highly qualified, have several years experience and if my job existed in the private sector arguably this would be better recognised financially on this basis. However I have a level of job security, get full pay if sick for several months and okay (although not as great as they used to be) pension benefits.

I am now a loan parent working full time with no entitlement to tax credits etc, no family support so lots of child care costs but really are the families I work with better off? They really do live in poverty. Children go hungry, no choice in where they live, benefit sanctions, lack of control and often the resulting substance misuse and unhealthy relationships that living like this brings. As you will know the parents you work with are often victims of abuse and poor parenting themselves and have had few chances in life.

However you and your DP have been able to choose to buy a house and in all probability will provide oppurtunities for your child that your service users cannot. I really do think you need to rethink your career if you are feeling this way.

Why do people fret about having an extra child? It is beyond me. Honestly the world is not going to end. The child will not starve. Stop being so materialistic.

This is what pisses me off about the benefits system. My Mum’s neighbour lives in a 2 bedroom flat with 4 children and doesn’t work, and is moaning that the council haven’t magicked up somewhere bigger for them all to live. And yet here the OP is contemplating how to afford a second. It’s so fucking unfair.

See how you financial situation is in the next few years

I think people have been a bit harsh on you OP.
On MN there seems to be 2 loud camps:

1. We have a household income of £80,000 but don't know ifnwe can afford children because we want a house in thr right area and need to consider nursery and school fees for up to 2 children as we want the unbirn chikd to go private and do all the extras etc.
2. Have a baby whenever. There's no decent time. Ypu'll jusy make do. And then if you point out that you don't want to 'make do' because you don't want to be stressing about bills and limiting extras then you must be a snob who loves monry more than kids.

The reality is that most of us are in thr middle. We do pay attention to finances and costs before having children.

I think short term a baby would be unadvisable but if you fell pregnant you would manage.

Maybe go to money advice service and look there and start cutting back your spending now so you have some savinhs when you do decide to TTC

We had our first child by 'accident' - we had hardly any money, we had just bought a one bedroom flat and were both recently qualified so on starter professional wages.
We had to cut down-
Charity shop clothes for baby
Just freeview- no sky package or anything
Relentless about finding the cheapest energy deals
Cutting down to meat just 1-2 times a day and become experts with lentils and beans!
We survived, baby wanted for nothing. Never had any childcare from family, Dd went to a childminder near my work which was cheaper than nursery and I dropped just one day.

Over time our financial situation improved, salaries improved and we had a second dc after we moved to a slightly bigger house.
If you can cut your expenses you will
Manage, as people do, and I'm sure your Dh salary will increase

Why do people fret about having an extra child? It is beyond me. Honestly the world is not going to end. The child will not starve. Stop being so materialistic.

Because said extra chid will need more than food! Childcare, clothing, school costs extra need to be paid. Too many people gave this attitude and the child suffers.

This is what pisses me off about the benefits system. My Mum’s neighbour lives in a 2 bedroom flat with 4 children and doesn’t work, and is moaning that the council haven’t magicked up somewhere bigger for them all to live. And yet here the OP is contemplating how to afford a second. It’s so fucking unfair.

This is very true. Workers who pay into the system don't get a pay rise with every child but those on benefits do plus another child means they don't have to look for work for a number of years again hence many play the system. Tax credits tried to cap the number if children and there was uproar from people which just shows how many feel that providing for a child is some one else's responsibility.

At least the OP is being sensible, not many nowadays even look at costs before going ahead.

If you think the interest rate is high now and you’re stretched meeting those payments, imagine if they go up. I don’t think a big surge is likely at the moment because so many people are in your position but it’s a consideration.

In your position I wouldn’t unless you have a way to reduce outgoings/increase income first.

'Tax credits tried to cap the number if children and there was uproar from people which just shows how many feel that providing for a child is some one else's responsibility.'

They have capped it, Yellow.

OP we have some joint income of £33k which is about £2,300/month net. We also get child benefit and some tax credits. I work part time which covers some of the childcare and means our childcare costs are "low" and run between £500 - 600 a month. I also work term time only which helps. Our mortgage is £950, petrol £150 and food £250. So immediately our monthly outgoings are at least £1850 a month and then there are the rest of the bills (insurances come to £90). We don't have any debt or credit though and we don't have sky but we do have Internet and a freesat box. We have 2 children.

On paper you should be able to do it but you'd need to look at paying off your things on credit (we did the same). Can you look at generating income yourself? It's surprising how many people make this work...surveys, freelancing, dropping catalogues, setting up a website, making and selling things etc.

I also put the 13th month of child benefit and council tax free month payments into a separate bank account as it immediately amounts to 450 and is nearly a month of childcare or a hefty contribution to xmas.

We would like a third and ironically even though our income is low, it will soon be an ideal time "if" we decide to do it. If we time it right then our current youngest would be eligible for the 30 free hours and we wouldn't have any childcare costs as I don't work term time. It frees up money for childcare for a possible third. I've also negotiated a pay increase in my contract which would see us £200/month better off (although obvs tax credits would be adjusted). That being said whether we do decide to have another child is another matter entirely.

Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to say it's easy. It's not easy and I worked very hard to negotiate good terms and conditions in my job which facilitates a lot of what we're able to have and do. But we knew we wanted another child and we made it happen. We wouldn't have been able to had I not done. I think there's a vast majority of people these days who have to work hard and plan hard to make it feasible to have a second child. I also think it's important to remember that once the early childcare years are out of the way, in most cases, if you have cut your hours to part time, it's easier to return to full time, generating more income again.

I hope you figure it out.

Tell your MIL to step up or shut up. We couldn’t afford two at the time I was still able to have more (now too old to have more - in 50s/dd was when I was in 40s).
One is the cards I am dealt and I love her.

Looking at your outgoings, I'd bin Sky and get Plusnet, which will save you £25. Look at your insurances - our combined buildings and contents is £180 pa, half of what yours is.

You're stuck with the credit and car payments for now, but get those cleared as soon as you can (we never spend more than £1,000 on our cars, and bin them if they need an expensive repair. Every now and then, we get a duffer, but I had 3 years of trouble free motoring from a £600 car). And could you manage with just one car?

Once you've paid for the phones, don't get an upgrade but go for a SIM only deal, or stick with what you've got and renegotiate the contract. (Mine now costs me £7.50 a month).

Our income is virtually the same as yours but we don't have childcare costs. All our bills and shopping, after the mortgage, are well under £1,000 a month and we run 2 cars, 2 motorbikes and a motorhome. We eat out quite a bit, drink wine and go away a lot. Despite buying clothes and treats, we're both saving regularly from our individual spending money. But we don't have Sky, credit repayments or expensive phones.

Definitely look into whether you'd be better off on reduced hours. If it means you get some tax credits and don't have to make student loan repayments, you could be quids in.

As a babyboomer, I had to chuckle at "eyewatering" interest of 4.5%. I can remember how much better off I was when I managed to remortgage at a bargain 13.1%. Most of my friends were paying 15% or more!

Where do the extra benefits come from for each child? There is an extra £14 a week for child benefit, which the OP would get too, but nothing else.