To not take DD on holiday

[Strawberryshortcake40]

Have posted about DD before. She is unwell with an eating disorder, it has been over two years now. Life is pretty hellish.

A couple of months ago she seemed to be making progress, it was thought it would be good to give her something to aim for. So a holiday was booked for her, her younger sister and me.

Last month she started getting very manipulative about it all. Saying what her DS could do/not do on holiday, how she wasn't going to keep to our plans etc. Sure enough she had lost weight (her behaviour is a sign). I told her if she lost more weight she could not go. She rallied slightly. Her therapist said if she lost more weight she shouldn't go.

Well with a week to go, she's lost almost a kg in a week. So now WTF do I do? She really isn't well enough to go but is insistent I will "give in and take her".

Her little sister will be devastated not to go away and frankly she needs a break, she cries most evenings before bed at how life is here and it's soul destroying to see how her childhood is being wrecked by this.

But I feel v v sad at the thought of not taking DD who this was all for in the first place, but if I take her it will literally be a whole week of us being dictated to by her illness.

AIBU to not take her??

Tell her to take a book so she has something to occupy her for rides she doesn't want to go on and don't feel guilty for not pandering to her unreasonable requests. Stay firm and consistent and as ave said lay out the expectations before you go and leave the consequences until you get home.
You never know the change of scenery might be the making of her and worst case scenario of her ruining the holiday completely can't be any worse for dd2 than having it cancelled at this late stage anyway.

I've said before that I don't really think it's an option of leaving dd1 behind, given the therapists opinion that it would be catastrophic.

Sorry, I missed the post where the therapist said it would be catastrophic to leave her behind.

Agree with Whinesalot - obviously you have to keep DD1 safe, and it doesn’t sound like leaving her that is possible. But beyond that, focus on DD2 - if you go on holiday with DD1, it might be a long way from perfect but there will undoubtedly be some good bits too. If you cancel the holiday DD2 will see something being ruined by her sister’s illness yet again, and will quite understandably be totally devastated. Going, even with DD1, can’t possibly be worse for DD2 than not going at all!

Also If she goes you need to be realistic about her limitations. Plan short trips to the parks, with breaks, then return for a rest at hotel/pool. Perhaps return for fireworks/evening parade later. If you try to keep going until she is fit to drop it will have a knock on effect on the evening and next day.

I think the OP described earlier how when dd1 is in meltdown its unsafe to the point of being impossible to leave her.

I don't suppose there is any form of holiday club or childcare at the hotel that dd2 might be able to go to?

And try not to let her behavior on holiday wind you up. That will then create a viscous cycle because she will then respond negatively to your resentment. I know it's easy to say, but you know things will get difficult so expect that and try to put on a cheerful, jolly demeanor even in the rough times. Fake it till you make it. Shrug off her outbursts. Say that you are not going to allow "her friend" to spoil the holiday. Sit it out cheerfully then move on. Just gently say that you'll deal with things when you get back.

Forget pressuring her to put on weight. That too, can restart back at home. As long as she eats or drinks enough to maintain, that's enough - though of course she will enjoy her holiday more if she has more energy but that's up to her. That in itself might be an incentive.

I can't make myself read whole thread, but I did want to respond to this, speaking personally.

Would you still go if she had another illness??

HELL YES I would go. I have loads of relatives with mental illness & not letting their problems make me crazy, too, is vital. Same protection must extend to others not currently affected.

Give her the choice if staying with grandparents or her dad. Otherwise You should go.

It's such a nightmare situation to find yourself in OP and I really feel for you.

I spent a year as an inpatient in a specialised ED unit and another year as an outpatient and one thing which I know is very important is to have strict boundaries. We were only accepted on the unit if we wanted to get better and if our weight dropped then we'd have a first warning but second time and we were sent off the unit for a week to decide if we really wanted to get better or not. If we came back and dropped weight again then we'd be kicked off for good. In terms of food, I was struck how you're getting all this lovely special food for her. We were allowed two dislikes - mine were raw tomatoes and peas. Anything else and I had to eat it. Also we had to eat puddings with every meal (mostly light ones such as mousse but twice a week, they had to be heavy ones such as treacle tart and custard) plus I remember getting fish and chips once a week. The idea was to get us used to the fact that you can eat all the so called 'bad' foods and not get fat. Also it was to get us used to dealing with life without using the ED at all. Any kind of control and manipulation around food and the ED is winning. It's like I'll eat but only if it's this or that. I'd forget all of that and have dinner and she eats what you're all eating or not. Her choice. She can choose to get better or choose to get more ill. Her choice. You need to help the healthy side of her and Anorexia is so devious so will look for lots and lots of tiny ways to help get more control again.

Sadly and I know this is hard to watch her starve but I think it sounds like you're doing a lot of enabling of her illness and stricter boundaries should be in place. There are lots of other behaviours attached to the illness. My treatment involved not being allowed to 'act out' at all and so by removing all our coping mechanisms which essentially numbed and stopped us from dealing with our emotions in a healthy way, we could start to learn to deal with life and our emotions in a mentally healthy way. The CBT therapy helped to identify the triggers and to work out other ways of dealing with the destructive thoughts and emotions. But crucially if any of the behaviours started to manifest then we were chucked off the program. It seemed very harsh but to be honest, it was the only thing which helped as I'd got to the point I knew I would die if I didn't get better so I desperately didn't want to get kicked out.

So I think you need to keep your strict boundary and if she loses weight then she stays behind for her own health and yours and especially your younger daughter. It's so unfair what's happening to her and your elder daughter needs to learn that her ED cannot control the rest of the family to that degree. If that means staying with her Dad then that's just what has to happen. She needs some boundaries and the ED needs those boundaries. I was under Professor Lacey at St George's in London and have spent the last few decades ED free as the treatment was amazing but also I know lots of us there had been on other programs at the Priory and other places and had found it easy to 'cheat' the treatment. Any cheating and the ED wins and the poor person with the ED doesn't get better. I really wish you all the best but do implore you to stop helping her ED have control. I know you said you feel like you're failing them both and by trying so hard, you kind of are. It's important to realise that you can't help your elder daughter unless she helps herself. Allowing that level of manipulation is failing her. She needs really strong boundaries but to know you're there for her and love her and will do anything for her but you won't do anything for the ED because the ED is not her friend much though she might feel like it is. Special foods? Those are for the ED and not for your daughter. Letting her come on holiday when she's lost weight when she wasn't supposed to - the ED is testing the boundary to see how much it can get away with. She comes with you and the ED has won and is more likely to keep testing the boundaries in terms of behaviour while you're away which will ruin the trip for you and your younger daughter. She needs to know she's important too.

You should be prepared though that while you're away, the ED may well go really crazy and push even further but that's just the nature of the ED and it's up to her to let it control her or not. You can't let it control the rest of the family too and impact that hugely on everyone else too. Be supportive but not enabling. It could be the line in the sand which everyone needs and your youngest daughter will really benefit and conversely in the long term, your eldest daughter too. It's tough love but ED's need it.

That's hugely insightful merry

But given her relationship with her dad and the absence of anyone responsible to look after her, you still think she should leave her behind with her Dad?

I've been reading the thread since yesterday but didn't post as I had no advice that hadn't been given by others much more experienced than me.

But your conversation this morning and your and her epiphany might well change everything.

I really don't think leaving her with her dad is an option. Especially given this morning's conversation.

This conversation may well totally change things for your DD.

I like Ave's advice about taking her.

If you completely took the focus off food and AN would it help I wonder? Tell her you are all going to try to forget that she has AN. Her 'friend' is not coming on holiday. (I think calling AN a friend is poss not good either - def more enemy .). Maybe lighten the atmosphere by joking that frenemy doesn't have a passport so is being left behind. Have a conversation about making this holiday the opposite of that one with your X. You can all eat what you like when you like. Don't pressure her to eat. And don't praise her either. Just ask if she is enjoying it. Does it taste good. Lots of praise for stuff not related to food.

Open up a conversation about how she felt when her dad made comments about food etc.

I really think the conversation this morning could be a game changer. But not if you leave her behind.

I agree with merry. I think the longer term consequences of her having control over the holiday and shitting all over her mother's boundaries again are far worse than staying with her dad for a short while.

Anorexia is all about control. The food is just a tool.

Can you take your youngest away on holiday, and send older DD to a trusted close friend or relative for a "holiday"? That way you all get a break and some respite?

Alternatively.. maybe it's time Older DD was at an inpatient facility. Threats to harm others suggests she has multiple issues, and with a younger sibling at home, you definitely would not be unreasonable to seek inpatient help for her...

I'd take DD2 but not eating disorder daughter. Not as a punishment but as a safeguard for DD2, sounds like she needs some in put for her mental well-being.

I think after the conversation this morning then he staying with her Dad is totally not possible.
It could also be the start of a real breakthrough. Do her therapists know about her father’s controlling ways?

Could you have a very detailed plan of what you will do on holiday?
Like an hour by hour guide with meal times on it?
Then could you agree with your dd1 that she follows the plan, eats a small amount at each meal time and behaves so everyone enjoys the holiday?
I’m not sure how feasible that is. I’m guessing that the illness means she likes to be in control so having the guide means she can see what’s happening next and can help you plan it.
I really feel for all of you in this situation. Your dd2 really needs to know you love her as much as dd1 and needs to spend that time with you with or without her sister.
A holiday is such a big thing to throw away.
I really hope you manage to sort something out either way.

The only reason I would suggest staying with her Dad was that when we were sent on a time out from the unit, it was often to a place not ideal for us mentally. Most of us had abusive parents of one sort or another. At the moment, it seems that her eldest doesn't entirely want to get better and so there is little that the OP can do in those circumstances to help her eldest other than reassure her that she is there for her when she's ready to start seriously getting better with some kind of contract on no lying and no abusive behaviour etc. Personally I'd prioritise protecting her youngest and and putting some firmer boundaries in place in order to protect them all from the ED.

strawberryshortcake40 - I read back over your past posts about your DD and I cannot imagine what you're going through and it definitely sounds like you need something more in terms of mental health support than what you're getting. I know you were very much against in patient treatment but I found for me, it was exactly what I needed. I'd definitely reconsider it for your DD especially if she can get on a good program. The professor I was under (Professor Lacey) is now at The Nightingale Hospital - he has been leading research in treating Eating Disorders for years and I'd seen many people and professionals by the time I was referred to him. www.nightingalehospital.co.uk/condition/anorexia-nervosa/ -

I really hope this is your low point and it gets better from here:

PS to strawberryshortcake40 I can see that The Nightingale Hospital is private - when I was under him, it was on the NHS so it may be worth enquiring if he still does an NHS program too. (sending unmumsnetty hugs to you)

Yes she has an illness and yes it probably isn’t her adult and not is she in control of it. However, you have a younger child’s needs and yours to look after. You both need a break. Do not think of it as excluding her, think of it as a much needed break to yourselves without being dictated too. You and your younger child need the break and you both bloody well deserve it. Enjoy yourselves and worry about the elder child once you are back. Have fun and really spoil the younger child with attention while away. Have a great time op.

Just to clarify, the only inpatient care available, be it nhs or private would only kick in at a certain weight. We got on the waiting list at one stage. There were 6 ahead of us, by the time we were nearly at admitting stage she went 100g over the criteria weight. We were then off the list. There was no choice of hospitals or programs. You get what you are allocated. My dr has recently sent a patient to hospital in Scotland (we are in east anglia) as that was the only bed available in the country.

And to a certain degree I am against impatient care as there is only a 30% chance of full recovery from that. 50% bounce in and out of hospital and live with the illness for years. There's actually as good a chance of full recovery if treated at home, and like I say no beds available anyway!

Sorry. OT there!

Could your other daughter who is at Uni possible help while you are away?

No. She doesn't want to be involved at all. Understandable really.

Sorry, can't be of much help but sending hugs

Think of it this way. You have put your ill daughter first for two and a half years. Do not feel guilt at putting your other daughter first for a change. Right now, mentally, the youngest needs support and the elder will have to do without. It sounds awful it really does but the youngest child needs attention now. Please take her on this holiday. You will both feel so much better for it. I have a sick child (transplant and only young still) and respite is a godsend. No one can look after her except us, so we’ve never been alone at night since she came home. If we could have a holiday without all the hassle that comes with her extra needs it would feel amazing. I love my child but to sleep uninterrupted and not have to faff about with feeding tubes etc would be so lovely. That won’t happen any time soon though lol but she will grow older and hopefully more independent. Basically, if I and many others can feel like that over a physical disability then there is no need for you to feel any different regarding this holiday for your youngest daughter just because the other daughters illness is a mental one.

I feel like I’ve rambled now, hope you can make a decision op.