To not take DD on holiday

[Strawberryshortcake40]

Have posted about DD before. She is unwell with an eating disorder, it has been over two years now. Life is pretty hellish.

A couple of months ago she seemed to be making progress, it was thought it would be good to give her something to aim for. So a holiday was booked for her, her younger sister and me.

Last month she started getting very manipulative about it all. Saying what her DS could do/not do on holiday, how she wasn't going to keep to our plans etc. Sure enough she had lost weight (her behaviour is a sign). I told her if she lost more weight she could not go. She rallied slightly. Her therapist said if she lost more weight she shouldn't go.

Well with a week to go, she's lost almost a kg in a week. So now WTF do I do? She really isn't well enough to go but is insistent I will "give in and take her".

Her little sister will be devastated not to go away and frankly she needs a break, she cries most evenings before bed at how life is here and it's soul destroying to see how her childhood is being wrecked by this.

But I feel v v sad at the thought of not taking DD who this was all for in the first place, but if I take her it will literally be a whole week of us being dictated to by her illness.

AIBU to not take her??

Oh God OP - you can't cancel the holiday or take dd1. I have a lot of ed experience and in this situation the right thing to do is absolutely take dd2 on her own. She deserves it and you need it. You need to break that control pattern she has so that she sees that the AN is causing BAD things.

Please, please take dd2.

I think the Op knows this Pandora but is so ground down by it all with the lack of support and everything that she is going to take, I fear, the least worst option which is cancelling.

good old DD2 wont kick off because she never does but any other option and DD1 will.

please say that you are going to take DD2 on her own OP?

I genuinely don't know what to do despite some brilliant advice on here. It's easy to say leave her, I sincerely wish I had someone I could comfortably leave her with, then this would never have been an issue.

Someone upthread asked why DD has two therapists? Par for the course really, camhs just deal with weight gain and not the issues surrounding it. So DD also has a CBT therapist, which is one of the best types for her issues. She also has a psychiatrist although that's more for her medication. The two therapists rarely agree on anything because they look at it from different points of view.

The worst? I guess she could become suicidal again? Become so mentally ill I have to give up work (again) to care for her. Unlikely in a week but I suppose it could start it all off? That's a worse case scenario.

And I doubt she could die, although that's always a possibility with long term AN. She could self harm again.

Your mistake was making a deal that was going to be a disaster if she didn't deliver. You can't negotiate with anorexics but I guess you know that now.

You have to take your DD2 on the holiday. If you want two very fucked up kids, you stay home or take both kids. It's a grim decision but I think it's your only option.

I suspect it will actually be really good for your DD1. Yes, your ex is shit and fucked up but she needs to see that first hand. She also needs to know that she is not in charge - you are. And I know it will be really good for your DD2 to know that you're prioritising her. You've tried with DD1 - you've done every single thing she's demanded and still she's manipulative and plugging into her AN. So that approach isn't working.

Maybe it's time to try something different?

OP I haven't really read the whole thread. However I see you are still unsure.

All I can say is that my own recovery from anorexia was based on plain, harsh restrictions. There was no pandering to my eating disorder. It was you don't gain weight, you can't have your phone. You don't gain weight, you're not allowed anywhere unsupervised.

That's purely anecdotal, though, but from experience of my friends with anorexia, you can't give much free reign as the anorexia is so manipulative. You budge a little, your daughter will take a lot.

I know she's only 15. But she will act manipulatively as she is ill.

If she's relapsed many times, it sounds like you need to try a new approach. Everyone is different. For me it was firm boundaries (and I was 19- my parents stopped all financial support, i.e., if I didn't remain above a certain weight.) The focus was get me to gain weight, then focus on mental recovery after. Often the mental recovery can't begin until physical restoration is complete.

If it were me, my main goal would be making 100% sure she doesn't lose anymore weight. Concentrate on physical health first.

As for your other daughter- you both need a break.

I would go, take other DD and leave your DD with the eating disorder with suitable carers.

Someone with an eating disorder needs to realise that their main aim is recovering. This is why some anorexics are pulled out of school- education, social life, anything else is not as important as recovery.

Your DD needs to realise that. There's no room for manipulation, her only option is getting better and recovering and she needs to realise the consequences of not adhering and committing to her recovery.

So if it means leaving her behind as you originally said and going with other DD, then IMO you must do this.

You need to be so firm. Not because she's a bad person, but because if you don't stand up to her eating disorder and confront it, it will never go away.

She has no reason to recover right now. She probably doesn't see it. From my own experience, a lot of anorexia recovery is about removing freedom and making the individual earn it back.

It sounds harsh. And mean. But anorexia kills and is a very dangerous illness. So in reality it's not really a harsh approach.

I had weekly counselling sessions and got asked to put on weight. I didn't.

Then my phone got taken away, my freedom, internet access, car, money, etc... and suddenly I had a reason to cooperate.
I didn't want to get better for myself, so the only way to get me to recover AT FIRST was to remove the few good things I enjoyed. Then eventually I realised I wanted to get better and gradually I got my freedom back.

Anorexia is a tough and controlling disease. Hence, treatment is often rigorous and controlling.

You have to take the control of the individual.

Again, this is purely anecdotal. This is my experience and the experience of the anorexics I know. Your approach may be different and that's entirely fine. There is more than one treatment option.

You and your daughter will get through it. You have to believe that, there is an end in sight. She has the chance to go on and have a normal, happy life that is so much more than numbers. She just has to believe that.

Op I really feel for you and I completely disagree with the posters who say that being aggressive and calling you names is nothing to do with AN. It’s everything to do with AN. I had over two years of what you’re going though, not quite so bad and we didn’t have the holiday dilemma. But there are many similarities in my situation. I had very similar things re the abusive aggressive behaviour and attitude. Control was everything. As soon as she started to gain weight, her behaviour and attitude changed radically. It’s a known fact that eating disorders are associated with aggressive, antisocial behaviour. I’ve lived through this like lots of other posters and so I can really really relate and empathise with you. It’s an actual living hell and no one ever asks how the family are coping. Not really. All they care about reallly is focusing on the one with the eating disorder. Well, the rest of us have bloody rights too!

strawberry - what is the worst that could happen to you? what is the worst that could happen to DD2?

you have to stop focussing on DD1 she does enough of that herself. you need to focus for one week out of 52 on yourself and DD2.

read the threads from recovering anorexics. they all agree. you have to go.

You need to start worrying as much about yourself and DD2. you need to get your strength and your fight back so that you can take this on and succeed with DD1. you cant do this if you are exhausted, scared of her and all the other things in your post.

long term its the absolute right decision. when you come back draw a line and tell her that theres no more mr nice guy. you tried that - pandering to her every need and whim - and it got you nowhere. so now its eat this food, sit here for an hour, no locks on doors and no multi press-ups before bed. weight loss and she loses her phone, computer or whatever.

you can only do this tough approach if you have the strength and at the moment you don't. so take the holiday.

you are focussing so much on DD1 you seem to be forgetting about your own mental health and that of dd2's.

Your inability to decide shows you know that there is NO right or wrong answer.

Sticking to your guns and leaving DD1 at home whilst you have a holiday IS putting you and DD2 first. Why shouldn't you come first for once? You and DD2 do matter too and quite frankly, DD2 would be, as you know, devastated to not go, blame you and her sister and then you risk a further blowout and worsening relationships between you, DD1 and DD2.

Not going and cancelling is also putting your DD1 first and ensuring that she is well enough to attend. There isn't anything wrong with that. Both your daughters need you.

If this was me, I would take the lesser of the two evils; i.e make the choice that would give you less flack and a bit more peace, if there ever can be because even if you go,'I' would worry about DD1.

On the other hand, a holiday 'could' be what DD1 needs. Have you asked her if she wants to go? (have not read the 5 pages of this thread!)

But also I would definitely NOT ignore her violence - illness or not!

@Crockface

A very powerful post from someone whose been there

Why can’t you take the younger daughter away and leave older daughter at home? It’s not a punishment for older daughter, it’s a break for you and your youngest.

MH worker here. Your private therapist is an advocate for DD1, not for the rest of your family. He’s biased. If DD1 suffering now prevents an ED or other lifelong issues for DD2, isn’t it worth it?

Also, if you imagine that there is a tiny part of DD1 trapped inside that does want to recover, can you see how terrifying it might be for her that the anorexia keeps winning? If you can show that you are strong and will not bend to anorexia (by sticking to stated boundaries), that can promote recovery as your DD1 feels that you are strong enough to withstand it, and perhaps she can too. But I acknowledge that that can be extremely hard to do, when the main part of your daughter is siding with anorexia and will fight your resistance with everything she can.

For what it's worth, I was the lowest point of my eating disorder when I suddenly found optimism, and saw myself -finally- as a very ill person, with no semblance of control.

Being thin had taken over my entire life. For years everything revolved around weighing, measuring, and shrinking - I wanted to disappear.

I lost all that previously mattered, yet I was so deliriously happy to have my beloved, dependable ED.

I was about to go inpatient when my DM took me on a holiday to see my older sister in America. I honestly couldn't tell you what it was about that trip; the break from routine, the lack of organised meal plans, feeling cared for, or just being unable to weigh/measure/control/hide as well as I could at home.

Whatever the catalyst, that trip 4 years ago marked the beginning of the eating disorder-free life I have today. The pressure on my shoulders eased, the niggling thoughts lessened, and immediately after returning I put my absolute everything into recovery.

I guess what I'm saying is, I don't see any benefit in withholding a holiday as punishment. I know a little of the mindset your daughter is struggling to control, and I really believe that relentless, enduring love is invaluable for her right now.

I owe my own mother absolutely everything for sticking those dark years out and taking me away when I needed it most.

I hope this is taken as intended - I don't want to assume I know what's right for you and your family. Just recognised some of your exhaustion and wanted to say don't give up hope.

It's only a week. Take dd2 - put her (and you) first for once. It will make such a huge difference for her, and you need the break too. It's an important message to send to your dd1 as well. She will hate a week at her dads, but she needs to know you can stand against the anorexia. You can't take both of them - terribly unfair on dd2.

I am getting really frustrated at the way so many posters are giving advice with apparent certainty. If dealing with MH problems was so straightforward, life for so many of us would be so much easier!

Those advocating a 'tough love' approach, starting now by leaving DD1 with her dad and going on the holiday, have absolutely no way of knowing that DD1 will be fine.

Even Crockface, who gives a powerful personal perspective, misses the point about the concerns regarding OP's ex. She says to leave DD1 "with suitable carers". The whole issue for OP is that she has genuine fears that her ex is not simply 'unsuitable' he is potentially harmful. And this is a view that OP says is backed up by a professional.

People ask "what's the worst that could happen" as if pissing off DD1 is what the OP fears. No, the OP fears that the double negative of 1) being left behind and 2) being exposed to the emotionally abusive ex will cause further mental damage or trauma. OP says one therapist believes that it could be "catastrophic" for DD1. But posters here are apparently certain that will not happen ....

'tough love' may be the right approach but if you read the accounts from those who have been through it, they describe micro management of tiny steps and targets - not a sudden massive sanction in a situation that has not been carefully planned and thought through.

People are quick to tell the OP that DD1 will be fine and that DD2 will be damaged if she doesn't get this holiday. Sadly, DD2 will be affected either way. She was expecting a holiday dominated and compromised by her sister's AN. She wasn't expecting a 1:1 holiday with her mum.

But, OP can now start to plan for that 1:1 time that DD2 needs. It may require finding 'suitable carers' for DD. This in turn may need OP to look for funding or charitable support etc. or it may simply be a process of ensuring DD2 time with OP is timetabled and stuck to rigidly. It may not be a week's holiday but plenty of families don't get holidays. This situation could be the catalyst to a new regime for the whole family.

#feistyColl very very well said.
I completely understand the ops misgivings, she's literally in a lose/lose situation.
There are very few parents who would go off happily on holiday leaving one child behind no matter how justified they may be. There are even less who would go knowing they would be leaving the child in a non safe environment.

The op is an amazing parent, she's clearly at the end of her tether yet she gets up every day and does this alone and without support. Both her girls are her priority, she's amazing
My dd had mild depression as a teen and it'd break a parent. I had lots of support with my dh who's her dad and my own family and friends and I still struggled. Not knowing what's the right or wrong thing to do for your children is the hardest thing in the world.

I've had an interesting epiphany sitting chatting to DDs this morning about the last family holiday we had, where basically Ex dictated every aspect of it. Where we went, but more importantly what we ate and where we ate it. They can vividly remember the only ice cream they had was when I took them for one one evening when he went somewhere else. DD15 reminded me how she was only allowed popcorn one day as otherwise she would get fat. She was the skinniest preteen you can imagine with a very healthy appetite at the time.

FFS and I can't put two and two together and work out why she's got an eating disorder?!!!

I feel very strongly that to leave her with her dad is wrong. After the last issue with him she wrote him a long email saying how his anger towards us was unnecessary and urging him to get counselling for it asshe wanted to build a relationship with him but was scared of his behaviour. At the time she was supported by camhs with this. I now feel they are basically saying her feelings are unimportant and for me to send her there basically means to me that I am saying his behaviour is okay.

So back to the drawing board with another option for care (although no idea where from) or not going.

Can you take someone with you? To take care of older DD but without rejecting her.

Whatever her illness I wouldn’t tolerate being called a fucking whore. Go and leave her with Dad, she is damaged not appreciating anything you’ve done for her so maybe a week with him might make her think.

Youngest dd has had to play second fiddle for long enough and needs this holiday.

for you Strawberry

does dd1 want to go

Have her therapists said it would be bad for her to go

I wonder whether she is deliberately sabotaging going

DD desperately wants to go. I can almost watch her battle with this, one moment she's all "fine I don't want to go anyway" and I can tell the AN is strong. Then I will see her looking at photos of it all and the hurt and bewilderment of not being able to go is there to see, and for a little while it's her again. Shes my daughter, the A turns her into someone totally different.

I don't think she's deliberately sabotaged it, I think the AN has kicked in and is calling the shots.

It’s so sad. Shame there isn’t a hospital/Home she could go to for w week or so.