Topshop gender neutral changing rooms part 2

[BahHumbygge]

Part 1 here

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3080957-To-alert-you-to-the-fact-that-Topshop-just-changed-its-policy-to-let-men-into-the-womens-changing-rooms

[BatShite]

I commented on the buzzfeed post a few days ago. I've been told I'm close minded and ignorant. Except one commenter. A trans woman who has gone through all the ops. She tore this idiot to pieces.

Yes, obviously I cannot speak too broadly on this but it does seem like transsexual people are as fed up of these narcissists as the rest of us. This GRC thing, its basically making light of everything transsexual people go through. This GRC changes thing..transsexuals do not seem impressed with at all. And why would they be really.

[Datun]

transsexuals do not seem impressed with at all. And why would they be really.

That does seem to be the consensus. And, I agree. I think the ideology, as an ideology is profoundly misogynistic.

Men who have gender dysphoria, are suffering from our highly gendered society.

And mostly, they get that. They find that presenting as women alleviates the symptoms. Something I totally understand. But not something I want to be perpetuated.

These fetishistic men who have hijacked the transsexuals’ narrative are making it so much worse.

As curry says, this is why people hate us.

I, personally, don’t hate transsexuals at all. I think it must be a nightmare living with gender dysphoria.

But they are absolutely right. They are getting tarred with the same brush.

[edam]

Haven't been on MN for a while but came back on a whim and spotted this thread. Thank heavens - it's great to find a grown up discussion about this. Twitter is appalling - full of extremist trans activists who threaten to punch women, and justify the ones who do beat women. And then claim it's not violence against women because the transactivists concerned are women. Despite not living as women, taking hormones or planning surgery - they just put on some make up and suddenly pushing women around is 'progressive', not male domination at all!

[VerticalBlinds]

I don't think they are "properly" unisex are they? They aren't going to remodel all their shops. They will still have a fitting room in the women's clothes area, and one in the men's clothes area (if there is one), but they have declared "all fitting rooms are gender neutral". So they won't be getting rid of the gappy curtains or layout or anything.

Also to whoever was going on about women on here being paranoid amount people "looking at their tits" (nasty turn of phrase). You're right, less men would want to look at my tits. My daughters are 8 and 10 though so are on the cusp of being a very popular age for random men to start behaving sexually inappropriately.

If Top Shop demographic is same as it used to be, then it's about 12 to 20, and often the first shop girls go when they start going out "on their own" with their mates. The posters on here who don't believe that there is a (larger than we would like) minority of men out there who will be quite keen to get into fitting rooms where behind gappy curtains there are 12 year old girls taking their clothes off, then you're incredibly naive.

[soapboxqueen]

If previous examples of gender neutral facilties have taught us anything, they'll not spend a penny on any refit. They'll just take down the sign that says female and replace it with All gender/gender neutral but obviously keep the male changing space.

So essentially male and male changing spaces. Woop.

[Datun]

men out there who will be quite keen to get into fitting rooms where behind gappy curtains there are 12 year old girls taking their clothes off, then you're incredibly naive.

Which is particularly concerning, when the man in question, who managed to change the fucking rules, is best friends with a man who thinks little girls are kinky, deviant and not ‘as straight and narrow as people think’.

Is there anyone, either on this thread, or lurking, thinks that those words being applied to children does not indicate an exceptionally unhealthy interest in the sort of girls who go to Top Shop?

And the upcoming legislation will ratify this.

And make no mistake, your opinion is neither being sought nor welcome.

[OlennasWimple]

The posters on here who don't believe that there is a (larger than we would like) minority of men out there who will be quite keen to get into fitting rooms where behind gappy curtains there are 12 year old girls taking their clothes off, then you're incredibly naive

And have probably also forgotten about teenage boys... Who will also be able to identify their way into the changing rooms where their class mates are trying on a dress

[Scabbersley]

Does he just want to BE a teenage girl

urgh

[MissionItsPossible]

Which is particularly concerning, when the man in question, who managed to change the fucking rules, is best friends with a man who thinks little girls are kinky, deviant and not ‘as straight and narrow as people think’.

Er...WHAT?

[VerticalBlinds]

His best mate is a "famous" trans person (alok) who wrote a long post about how little girls shouldn't be considered innocent and can be kinky and deviant just like everybody else, that was the gist.

It proved a step too far even for his fans and it got taken down pretty quick and then there was some aggression about how everyone was being mean to him and didn't understand him and poor him.
google "darmatter kinky" don't worry you shouldn't get anything apart from people who screenshotted / talked about his original post.

[Pandapenguin]

Genuine and possibly stupid question: is there ANYTHING we can do about this? Is there any way to lobby against the new proposals without being slapped away as transphobic? What are people's feelings on what the outcome will be? Has any pressure so far achieved anything?

I am motivated and not passive about this but not yet sure what I can / am going to do about it

[VerticalBlinds]

dark matter even

not sure if i type the whole thing it brings people over

[Pandapenguin]

Gmb poll this morning and interviews - no people don't want this. Except the person in the interview who managed to mumble yet also talk over everyone. Ironic.


m.youtube.com/watch?v=zei9UX461NE

[ImListening]

With Panda is there anything that can be done. This is about our daughters, granddaughters.

[VerticalBlinds]

here is a screenshot [[https://reneejg.net/2016/10/03/darkmatter-should-not-be-welcome-in-wellington/]]

and the guy in question "dresses up" as a 15yo girl and pouts for the camera.

It may sound as if I'm casting aspersions about these men.... Probably I am. Do they sound like the sort of men who are definitely safe to put in the fitting rooms with the gappy curtains and the pubescent / teen girls?

[pisacake]

"who wrote a long post about how little girls shouldn't be considered innocent and can be kinky and deviant just like everybody else, that was the gist."

not only that, but he complained about "hyper-criminalization of suspected gay paedophilia in the late 20th century"

and the context of the girls not being considered innocent was

hysteria over "freaky transgender people coming into your bathrooms and abusing innocent little girls"

in other words it's not really abuse because the little girls aren't that innocent and probably enjoyed it.

[BahHumbygge]

Travis is best friends with Alok aka Darkmatter. See FB screenshot in the link here. Basically he calls little girls not-so-innocent, deviant and kinky, ie "queering" the distinction between victim and perpetrator the former being somewhat complicit in their own abuse. Sinister victim blaming in other words... “We need to seriously overhaul the idea that there is a perfect victim anywhere”.

reneejg.net/2016/10/03/darkmatter-should-not-be-welcome-in-wellington/

[Pandapenguin]

Where does the line get drawn @pisacake? @vertical? At what point does this become borderline criminal? I mean ffs the language they are using and the things they are saying are so brazenly coyly OUTRAGEOUS and damaging to the people they are talking about. Enough already! It's absolutely ridiculous that they are allowed to say this and then come on over. No!

[VerticalBlinds]

Just reread the thing

What he's actually suggesting is that the "moral panic" over evil trans people getting into bathrooms and raping little girls is terrible because a. painting all trans people as sex offenders is bad (I agree) and b. painting all little girls as innocent victims is bad (woah hold on a minute there wtf).

He is suggesting that sexual interactions between trans people and children in public lavatories should be read as consensual, as little girls can be kinky deviants.

Note the internet were unhappy with this, even his fans.

This is the mate of the topshop man, not the topshop man.

[pisacake]

I think it's the same thing that allowed girls to be abused in Rotherham - they are seen as a victim, not a perpetrator, so anything dodgy is just ignored.

[ALittleBitOfButter]

Lila Perry had a very pornified idea about what girls do in changing rooms. Which the girls objected to - his gyrating and dancing etc. I expect AGPs with their pornsoaked idea of womanhood feel the same about shop changing rooms.

[RosaTheOwl]

Panda, that is a good point - the "perfect victim" thing reads as incitement to violence to me.

[BackBoiler]

So, what proportion of the male population do we have to be worried about? Reputable, peer reviewed studies (google the work of David Lisak for instance) suggest that possibly about 1 in 18 men will admit to having carried out behaviours ( e.g. having sex with a woman who said no, but using your body weight to restrain her) which meet the legal definition of rape. If you repeat the questionnaires actually using the word "rape" 1 in 20 men will admit to it.

1 in 18 or 1 in 20 of men that were ASKED!

Statistics, a funny thing that can be tweaked in any way to support an argument one way or another.

Also I doubt transgender (born men) will put themselves forward for all the abuse they get for being themselves JUST so they can rape females in changing rooms.

[Pandapenguin]

Right @vertical. I watched a prison documentary last week where a convicted peaodophile went on camera to say he thought his victims enjoyed themselves in the material he had watched. He was a convicted criminal in prison and not deemed suitable for release because of his mindset. He didn't care.

Food for thought.