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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Topshop gender neutral changing rooms part 2

452 replies

BahHumbygge · 09/11/2017 16:03

Part 1 here

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3080957-To-alert-you-to-the-fact-that-Topshop-just-changed-its-policy-to-let-men-into-the-womens-changing-rooms

OP posts:
BatShite · 12/11/2017 14:50

Im not even sure Topshop envisaged someone like Travis sauntering up looking 100% male ( with heavy stubble too) and demanding to use the 'female' changing rooms.

Of course they didn't see this coming. As they will be under the impression (like the rest of the population who go along with this blindly) that only people who are actually transsexual would be wanting to use the womens changing rooms. And they will likely see transsexual as post-op too. Like many who will argue for allowing all trans people into womens spaces. I mean, look at people who argue for changes to the law on here, they always come from the angle of thinking its only post-op transsexual people who this would benefit. And most people know one actual transsexual person who is nice and decent and would not take the piss. And will think that anything that helps this person is great, without thinking any deeper into what it would mean for the rest of the population. Not realizing that something like self-ID would actually be detrimental to the likes of a transsexual person, who would be able to get a GRC anyway.

In short, most people do not know that the likes of Travis are classed as 'trans' now. And really, the progressive way to deal with this is to create a separate unisex space, for those who consider themselves neither male nor female. All trans people could use that space, thus keeping male and female segregates by sex, like they are meant to be. I actually hope the Travis' of the world keep pushing boundaries and waking people up to this.

stitchglitched · 12/11/2017 15:14

Yep. I've had discussions with people in real life who seem to think most transwomen are like Hayley Cropper and why would we want to be so mean to them. A picture of Danielle Muscato usually makes them reconsider!

Albadross · 12/11/2017 18:02

I was talking to my dad about this today and he seemed to get it, but then said that men just don't report being assaulted by women because they're too ashamed. I googled a bit and found this: www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/

But also this: www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/nisvs/infographic.html

and I want to be able to account for the lack of reporting (which of course affects female victims too, I've certainly never reported it).

The above links have confused me a little.

BatShite · 12/11/2017 18:08

Well if women are such a danger to men, then it makes even mroe sense to keep the sexes segregated tbh. Men are a big danger to women, and according to those studies (which I would probably challenge but can't really be arsed right now so lets pretend I agree with them entirely)women are a big danger to men. So sex segregation should definitely continue, for the safety of both sexes.

Along with privacy, from the opposite sex when in potentially vulnerable situations.

BatShite · 12/11/2017 18:10

I will say self selected studies are pretty dodgy. Men who hate women are going to fill them in to say that women are dangerous and such. Thats why I prefer to go on crime stats tbh. Under reporting is a huge problem of course, but many many women do not report also, which probably evens out the differences. For every man who does not report, there are probably at least 2 women. So stats overall would still be that women are much mroe at risk.

DrKrogersfavouritepatient · 12/11/2017 18:12

I will believe the earth is flat before I believe that women are even close to men in terms of being "dangerous"

Datun · 12/11/2017 18:36

Under reporting is a bit of useless argument. Because it’s not the way we collate statistics.

CoteDAzur · 12/11/2017 18:47

Albadross - I looked up the study on which that CDC infographic is based, and this is how partner violence is defined: My comments are in italics.

Physical violence is the intentional use of physical force with the potential for causing death, disability, injury, or harm. Physical violence includes, but is not limited to, scratching; pushing ; shoving ; throwing; grabbing; biting; choking; shaking; aggressive hair pulling; slapping; punching; hitting; burning; use of a weapon; and use of restraints or one’s body, size, or strength against another person.

Basically, men who beat their partners into a pulp are committing physical violence. So are women who push a partner during an argument, saying "Get away from me!", for example. I imagine that this wide definition for 'physical violence' may be one reason why there seem to be so many women committing it against their partners.

Sexual violence is divided into five categories. Any of these acts constitute sexual violence, whether attempted or completed. Additionally all of these acts occur without the victim’s freely given consent, including cases in which the victim is unable to consent due to being too intoxicated (e.g., incapacitation, lack of consciousness, or lack of awareness) through their voluntary or involuntary use of alcohol or drugs.

Meaning that a man who violently rapes his DP is committing sexual violence, but so is a woman who has sex with her DP when he is drunk, even if he got drunk of his own volition Confused

Stalking is a pattern of repeated, unwanted, attention and contact that causes fear or concern for one’s own safety or the safety of someone else (e.g., family member or friend). Some examples include repeated, unwanted phone calls, emails, or texts; leaving cards, letters, flowers, or other items when the victim does not want them...

Again, it seems women are guilty of Intimate Partner Violence when they call, text, or email their ex Hmm and this seems to be counted as bad as throwing acid in their ex's face, beating them up, or killing them. Which is stuff men do, not women.

Psychological Aggression is the use of verbal and non-verbal communication with the intent to harm another person mentally or emotionally, and/or to exert control over another person. Psychological aggression can include expressive aggression (e.g., name-calling, humiliating ); coercive control (e.g., limiting access to transportation, money, friends, and family; excessive monitoring of whereabouts); threats of physical or sexual violence; control of reproductive or sexual health (e.g., refusal to use birth control ; coerced pregnancy termination); exploitation of victim’s vulnerability (e.g., immigration status, disability); exploitation of perpetrator’s vulnerability; and presenting false information to the victim with the intent of making them doubt their own memory or perception (e.g., mind games).

So psychological aggression includes name calling, "humiliating" your partner in front of his friends, and refusing to take the pill. Another clue as to why women look like quite the violent aggressors in this research.

BatShite · 12/11/2017 18:52

Refusing to take the pill is psychological aggression? Because, the man cannot simply us a condom or something? I can't take the pill as it makes me ill. DH happily used condoms (though he does say that the sensation is not the same) for a few weeks whilst I sorted out the injection. I really doubt he would say my refusal to take something that was making me ill was aggression of any kind Hmm

QuentinSummers · 12/11/2017 20:23

It's tricky because reproductive coercion (ie not allowing their partner access to contraception) is definitely a feature of abusive MEN. As is stalking and psychological abuse....

QuentinSummers · 12/11/2017 20:29

I believe most men who have been subject of domestic abuse are either abused by a same-sex partner (i.e. a man) or are abused by another man who's been involved with the woman (e.g.current or ex partner). That latter is in the UK. It's almost impossible to find stats about how many men are subject to abuse by women.
Anyway this is a tangent, I apologise

pisacake · 12/11/2017 22:09

92% of defendants in domestic abuse cases brought to court are male, while around 83% of victims in abuse cases are female.

for homicide the figures are:

www.ons.gov.uk/file?uri=/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/compendium/focusonviolentcrimeandsexualoffences/yearendingmarch2015/bulletintablesfocusonviolentcrimeandsexualoffencesyearendingmarch2015/02appendixtablesviolentcrimeandsexualoffences201415tcm77432777.xls

304 women killed by men in domestic cases, 10 women killed by women in domestic cases [n.b. domestic includes children, parents, etc.]
80 men killed by men in domestic cases, 37 men killed by women in domestic cases

ferntwist · 13/11/2017 05:34

Still on the subject of male violence but also getting back to the OP about trans issues impacting on women's rights, here's a new UK site that will be a good resource. It aims to document crimes by transgender people. Very important as we're told they never happen and we're bigoted to talk about it.
Also bloody worrying that so many of these crimes will now be recorded as being committed by women, making it much harder to talk accurately about the problem of male violence (98%of sexual violence is committed by males, including trans-identified males).
transcrimeuk.com/

ClarissaX · 14/11/2017 08:09

I agree - vote with your feet and shop elsewhere. Topshop will soon get the message. I certainly won't be visiting their shop now. With all the alleged sexual harassment going on at the moment why on earth did they pander to a small minority of the population? PC gone mad? Or common sense out the window?

FlowerPot1234 · 14/11/2017 08:25

We should all go into Top Shops, build a huge pile of clothes to try on, go to the changing rooms, say we'd like to check that the absurd rumour we've heard that men are allowed to change in the same changing rooms as women isn't true, then when they tell you it's "gender neutral" say how disgusted we are, ask the shop assistant to pass on your complaint/complain to the manager, leave the pile of clothes there, and walk out.

Babieseverywhere · 14/11/2017 12:39

Yes boycott Top shop but if the new amendments to the Gender Recognition Act goes through government then all changing rooms will be fully open to any man who wants to go in them.

So boycott Top shop by all means but talk to your MP to get them to oppose the changes to the GRA as well !

Albadross · 14/11/2017 21:27

Sorry, I wasn't intending to derail, just thought as we're on the subject...

ferntwist · 15/11/2017 17:32

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WhimsicalTart · 15/11/2017 21:11

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ferntwist · 15/11/2017 21:21

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ferntwist · 15/11/2017 21:22

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ChattyLion · 15/11/2017 22:13

What does that mean, ‘an MP issue’? Do they mean this is some kind of conscience issue for MPs that Labour will take no party line on? I don’t understand.

Datun · 16/11/2017 08:11

What’s an MP issue? Are they waiting for enough MPs to question it, before they decide they can suddenly throw up their hands and say ok, if you insist, we’ll look at it again. Trying to wriggle out of responsibility?

WhimsicalTart · 16/11/2017 08:37

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Datun · 16/11/2017 09:36

WhimsicalTart

Sounds as though he may think he has had a knee-jerk reaction to the whole thing. And is awaiting more information from his foot soldiers.

Hopefully.