Topshop gender neutral changing rooms part 2

[BahHumbygge]

Part 1 here

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3080957-To-alert-you-to-the-fact-that-Topshop-just-changed-its-policy-to-let-men-into-the-womens-changing-rooms

I’m assuming someone who does not have gender dysphoria, but wants to be trans-, will claim they do have gender dysphoria in order to get the hormone

Taking hormones is not something that is done lightly. They can have a major effect on the body - and if you don't have gender dysphoria, I think the psychological effects of the body changes as well as the physical effects will test someones claim to have gender dysphoria.

Imagine we were in a different time not so long ago. Women were property; their property transferred to men on marriage; no vote, no voice etc.

Imagine we were in a country in the Middle East or Africa where women are still very oppressed.

Would people like travis still be clamouring to be a woman

Also, if it were a case of gender being the determining factor as opposed to sex, then women could simply identify their way out of oppression by declaring themselves trans-men.

That solves it then! Feminism no longer needed! We shall all just decide we're men en masse and our oppression automatically ended.

Only I think that still on some level we'll recognise that there are people who happen to have vaginas and others who have penises, and the people who have penises will still hold power over the vagina-havers. It's almost as if biology matters in all this after all

Rights to balance up power relations between classes of people need to be based on material reality, not identity , otherwise it's meaningless... you just end up giving extra rights to the already powerful class and leaving the disempowered class with even fewer crumbs when policies are based on nebulous concepts like gender identity. Laws need clear definitional parameters in order to be effective... see the shambles of the dangerous dogs act that couldn't discern which individuals were covered or not. Likewise a clear distinct definition on what a man and what a woman is, not circular.

I can’t even get through to TopShop to complain. And I can’t find an email.

I’ve told my dds not to shop there anymore. I just hope they listen.

I hope one day you will meet a trans person and hear their story and maybe think differently.

I know a few trans people as I am a regular on the LGBT scene and tend to be on the scene more often than not. I know 3 post-op trans women. All of whom know they are male. 2 of whom have been using female areas since their operations and neither of whom has had any issues doing so, even though one of them really does not pass at all. The other one has never used female areas, even after their operation. And they have only ever had one instance of a man abusing them, and they think this was homophobia rather than transphobia.

I know a disturbing amount of 'transgender' people, and this amount is growing daily as its pretty much just a trend now. These people do not have sex dysphoria. But are classed as the same as transsexual people.

4 of the lesbians I know have been put in intimidating and dangerous situations by 'women with penises'. One of these lesbians was seriously assaulted by a 'lesbian with a penis' for refusing to suck said ladypenis once she found out the penis existed, as the 'lesbian with a penis' passed relatively well apparently so she did not know this person was male until the male had her alone. The lesbian with a penis is apparently not male, and 'her' saying she has the 'brain of a woman' overrides biology. This is, unfortunately the common view among 'transgender' people these days. Lesbians are simply vagina fetishists, and are transphobic for not wanting to shag male people.

It is 'transgender' that is the issue. Not 'transsexual'.

Yes saga at the moment you can legally exclude transwomen with a GRC from female sport if being male would confer an advantage in that sport.Why do you find that surprising

Not sure why you needed that comment at the end? It does make sense if someone has a high testosterone level that they be excluded from competitive sport even if they had a GRC.

So I'm a man but if I put on a dress it can change my gender and I'm suddenly a woman? Like I said before; why didn't anybody tell me that women's clothes have magical powers that can do this? Sorry, but no. This doesn't affect me directly but I'll sign any petition in protest on behalf of everyone this does affect.

2017 has been the craziest year I can remember. And we've still got two months left yet.

You don't even have to wear the clothes mission just say you feel you are a woman.

2018 - but "Trapped in the wrong body" means they have medical treatment to address that. It doesn't mean saying "I am a woman today because I feel like that" which is what Travis is doing.

Also regardless of the trans arguments, Travis is not trans. Travis is a man who says he is not a man or a woman, and choses based on his dress sense that day. its just utterly stupid. And people are falling over themselves to 'accept' it and tying themselves in knots to argue about how bigoted women are for realising that people with penises (overall, not individually) are a danger to both people with vaginas and other people with penises.

to the poster saying they can't find an email for TopShop, you can email the CEO (i.e. their PA) on

[email protected]

this is listed here
www.complaintsdepartment.co.uk/topshop-uk/

morningrunner is it derby? Because the inner team conflict there is rife too. I assure you.

Taking hormones is not something that is done lightly. They can have a major effect on the body - and if you don't have gender dysphoria, I think the psychological effects of the body changes as well as the physical effects will test someones claim to have gender dysphoria.

So how do you account for all these autogynephiles who don’t have gender dysphoria, but take hormones to grow breasts and feminise their features?

But you would accept that legally, under the Gender recognition Act 2004, that if that person has a GRC, they have a legal right to be there and can't be discriminated against?

There is provision within the law for exemptions, even for people with GRC. That needs to be strengthened and applied. The idea of "reasonable adjustment" as with disability could be brought in.

well, taking hormones is variable, some people react better than others. I have 2 friends who are MTF and one was fine, one was so unwell with it all it was not good.

I hope 2018 is still reading because it would be a great shame to be reading all this and thinking that no one has any empathy for transsexuals and no one has any transsexual friends. Transsexual and gender fluid are not remotely linked and I think 2018 thinks we are putting it all in the same box and labelling it "pervy men" which is not the case at all.

I jsut went back and read the original tweet from Travis to TopShop.

"Hey @Topshop just experienced transphobia in your Manchester store. Not letting me use the changing room I decide is shit, sort it out"

If anyone is looking for an example of male entitlement, here's a prime exmaple

"Hey @TopShop, just experienced someone telling ME I can't do something transphobia in your Manchester store. Not letting me do exactly what I want, when I want it is shit, sort it out bitch"

Surely its going to sadden Travis that the changing rooms are now unisex. He doesn't get to play his little gender games anymore

Oleanna "Not letting me use the changing room I decide is shit, sort it out"

yes. Can you imagine if a group of women decided to try on coats and wanted access to the men's changing room to do that?!

Surely its going to sadden Travis that the changing rooms are now unisex. He doesn't get to play his little gender games anymore

Yes, not sure that's what he really was after.

yes. Can you imagine if a group of women decided to try on coats and wanted access to the men's changing room to do that?!

Can you imagine it creating a Twitter storm, being on loose women, and in the Daily Mail.

From the Scottish thread with thanks to the poster who posted:

Single-sex services: paragraph 27: Effect
...734. Single sex services are permitted where:...
they may be used by more than one person and a woman might object to the presence of a man (or vice versa);...

Gender reassignment: paragraph 28: Effect
739.This paragraph contains an exception to the general prohibition of gender reassignment discrimination in relation to the provision of separate- and single-sex services. Such treatment by a provider has to be objectively justified.

Communal accommodation: paragraph 3
Effect
997. This paragraph provides an exception to the general prohibition of sex and gender reassignment discrimination. It allows communal accommodation to be restricted to one sex only, as long as the accommodation is managed as fairly as possible for both men and women. It sets out factors which must be considered when restricting communal accommodation to one sex only, and provides that discriminatory treatment of transsexual people must be objectively justified.
998. Communal accommodation is defined as residential accommodation which includes shared sleeping accommodation which should only be used by members of one sex for privacy reasons.

Section 195: Sport
Effect
614. This section allows separate sporting competitions to continue to be organised for men and women where physical strength, stamina or physique are major factors in determining success or failure, and in which one sex is generally at a disadvantage in comparison with the other. It also makes it lawful to restrict participation of transsexual people in such competitions if this is necessary to uphold fair or safe competition, but not otherwise.

Schedule 9: Work: exceptions
Considerations of privacy or decency might require a public changing room or lavatory attendant to be of the same sex as those using the facilities.
A counsellor working with victims of rape might have to be a woman and not a transsexual person, even if she has a Gender Recognition Certificate, in order to avoid causing them further distress.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/pdfs/ukpgaen201000155_en.pdf