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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Independent Catalonia...

177 replies

littlebird7 · 27/10/2017 15:31

Are we cheering from the rooftops delighted that they finally got their independence? Or shocked and sad for our Spanish friends have such a huge split in their amazing country?

Or do we feel both emotions at once?

I am shocked and but knew it was coming, could see it was heading that way when 700 companies moved in one week....

Over to you

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BCNChica · 27/10/2017 19:58

Yes. This is why I said He's as bad a Rajoy.

I don't know what is confusing. I, and everyone I know thinks Madrid was awful the way they handled the vote, the police, violence.
I also think Puigdemont has used false numbers and is using the people of Catalonia.

babybarrister · 27/10/2017 19:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

littlebird7 · 27/10/2017 20:02

BCN

Okay so amend the legal framework and offer Catalonia a legal viable referendum? That way you will truly know for sure the level of support for independence and all sides should agree to adhere to the result.

That is how a true democracy works, not brandishing batons and tear gas and forcing smaller states to stay against their will, and not even offering them the option of a vote.
There are names for leaders and governments like that and there is no place for them in the EU that is for sure.

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BCNChica · 27/10/2017 20:05

I agree with you. They should have just let us have a legal referendum, I think it would have been remain anyway.

Between Rajoy and Puigdemont we're screwed whatever.

littlebird7 · 27/10/2017 20:09

BCN

If you are right, then this could have been avoided. I am not religious but I have lit a candle for Catalonia and for the whole of Spain this evening and you are in my prayers. I hope a resolution can be found and quickly.

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DaisyLand · 27/10/2017 20:09

Rajoy won’t allow a legal referendum, rest of spain that support him would feel betrayed and he won’t be elected anymore.

Do you prefer to loose 1 autonomy over 17 or loose 12? He’s stupid but not that stupid. These are the results from last years elections , you can quickly spot Catalonia and Basque Country goo.gl/images/ueDmPf

BCNChica · 27/10/2017 20:12

Me too. I was talking to some of the other parents at the DC's school today, and mostly everyone seems to be in despair of the whole situation. It's sad.

TooManyPaws · 27/10/2017 20:12

Regionalism, nationalism and fascism are always close bedfellows.

Bollocks. The SNP is well to the left of the Labour Party and nationalism here is a civic nationalism, open to all who live here. Hence the groups that appeared at our referendum such as Poles For Yes, English For Yes, Scots Asians For Yes and so on. Whatever one thinks of the Union, the Scottish government has been fighting the cause of the immigrants to Scotland who have been shafted by the Home Office and Immigration authorities. The British nationalism of May and Farage is closer to the fascist type.

Madrid would have been better to have followed Westminster with an official referendum rather than risk civil war. How many votes did they lose with their violence seen all over the world? They are making a thorough mess of a situation far worse.

MaidOfStars · 27/10/2017 20:14

They will never be indépendant.

That doesn't reflect my feelings about secession. I'm being pragmatic.

littlebird7 · 27/10/2017 20:16

daisy

So I am not sure the 'rest of Spain' would support a civil war? Or even being in the position that it COULD happen.

Maybe if Rajoy had pointed out the risks to Spain he may have won more support.....but what done is done.

Can only hope that calm and reflection will bring forward some other solutions.

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PoppyPopcorn · 27/10/2017 20:17

I think the main difference in Spain is that Catalunya has never in iys past been independent. Even prior to 1469 and the marriage of Fernando and Isabel Catalunya was part of the kingdom of Aragon. People like to draw parallels with Scotland (the SNP certainly do) but it's not the same thing at all. It would be like a part of England such as Kent or Somerset suddenly deciding they didn't want to be part of the UK any more and declaring independence.

I think it's also very important to remember that feelings are running SO deep on this because Franco only died in 1975. That's well within living memory. Spain has only had a constitution since 1978. People find it easy to remember the opression under Franco and Madrid has to move so carefully over this. Barcelona is well aware of that and has pushed and pushed to force a response.

Personally, I think there's a part for the King in all of this. I know he's hands-off like our Queen is but his father calmed everything down in 1981 when Spain faced a similar crisis with his actions.

If Felipe made another address appealing for both sides to come together and TALK would it make a differnece? Or a neutral third party negotiator. If Bill Clinton or Tony Blair can sort out Northern Ireland or the Middle East, they need to be stepping in and offering help.

This all makes me very sad. Spain has been my second home for decades and I love Barcelona just as much as Bilbao or Granada or any other places i've been to.

DaisyLand · 27/10/2017 20:20

Only narrow minded people would go ahead with the civil war, however Rajoy obtained a 37% in the last general elections I believe and he’d loose much support as now there is another right party. Not everyone that has voted him would want a war .

I’ve got many Spanish friends that are against this referendum but would support a legal one, of course they’re not PP party voters.

A civil war is the worse outcome not only for Catalonia but Spain and also Europe, this shouldn’t be in their minds , unluckily it’s what everyone is fearing

babybarrister · 27/10/2017 20:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DaisyLand · 27/10/2017 20:22

poppycorn can’t agree more about the king. I wanted to cry when I heard him talking. However, his speech was done by his PA who belongs to th governments party so that’s why it was so pro union and we will do anything to obtain it even if we ignore 2.5m people’s wishes

babybarrister · 27/10/2017 20:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DaisyLand · 27/10/2017 20:31

I wasn’t allowed to vote in brexit so I understand that Latinos weren’t allowed to vote in this. They can only vote in the local elections I believe same way I can’t vote in the general /brexit but I can vote in the Spanish elections despite I’ve not lived there for over 10 years

babybarrister · 27/10/2017 20:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Doramaybe · 27/10/2017 20:44

Can see estate agents rubbing their hands. Time to buy NOW before the shtf. Bargains galore, Brexit aswell.

Apologies for being so crass, but every crisis brings an opportunity to someone somewhere.

It will all be sorted anyway. No way will this end in trouble. I am hopeful.

Rainbunny · 27/10/2017 20:51

I'm interested (genuinely as I really don't know much about the dynamics of this situation) as to how important it is to the Catalans wanting independence to remain in the EU? The EU have stated outright that they will not recognise an independent Catalonia. Is this something that pro-independence Catalans are willing to accept or is it that they have been hoping that the EU will relent and let them in (as some Scottish Independence supporters insist as well)?

Doramaybe · 27/10/2017 20:56

There will be NO civil war.

There is too much to lose on both sides. Remember the vote in Catalunya was not legal AFAIK.

Anyway, I reckon a lot if not the majority now in Catalunya just want to get on with their lives. Who needs war or conflict.

So we shall see. But I doubt there will be any escalation of this. If you were living there would you want trouble for you, your family or your children. For what?

The region can be given everything it wants, language, culture, etc. without secession.

They will have ten years min to rejoin the EU anyway if they go indo, and there are no guarantees either. That will be the catalyst.

UK might think it will take two years to leave. Ha fkn Ha.

toomuchtimereadingthreads2016 · 27/10/2017 20:58

We are not cheering, we are in shock. Am posting from BCN... not disclosed that on here before but it is obvs relevant for this thread. Personally, my family has always been anti independence. Until a few years ago it just seemed to be a phrase that was swung around at election time for the more hardcore separatists. Recently, it has become the main focus of everyday life, from work, to school, to transport, to town hall, friends, colleagues, neighbours, family... it is everywhere.

As I said, I dont support the separatists. I believe that Spain is better united (but not under Rajoy, will come to that later!) And that Catalonia benefits more from its status within the EU as part of Spain, than standing alone and severing ties with Madrid.

However, I can increasingly sympathise with their desire for autodetermination. It is right to say that the Catalans have tried for over a decade to have peaceful talks and mediations with Madrid, and have been met with closed doors. Or as in 2010 & 2014, false promises that aggravated things still further! A very basic example, but if a parent refuses to even hear what their child wants to ask permission for, what option are they leaving them?

Rajoy is a hateful man, who has systematically killed off social rights, job security, worsened the country's debt and economy, and belongs to the most corrupt party in living memory. Its less a case of finding corruption under every PP Rock, and more a case that they are sunbathing on the rock in plain sight, completely confident in their immunity. They have majority in the Senate. They were RELECTED... words fail me, the spanish voters are their own worst enemies, I cried when that result was announced.

Whilst in Catalonia it is obvious that Rajoys handling of this has been abysmal, and in my opinion he is the most responsible of all the players (with the EUs approval/backing seemingly? Wont get into this or my essay will be unreadably long), in Spain he is being cheered. "Show those catalans we mean business. Show them mano dura (hard hand)". When the national police were dispatched to Catalonia, they were waved off from their hometowns like heroes going to war "go get those catalans!"

The hostility, the brutality, the complete refusal to dialogue, has caused me to sympathise not with the separatists per se, but definitely with those requesting a referendum. It is the peaceful, democratic path. The result will speak for itself. Remain will win, but the high % requesting independence will mean some measures or reforms will have to be agreed at least.

I can't link the mayor Ada Colau's fb post about metaphorical trains colliding without linking my own profile, but if you can read it, it is worthwhile.

Rajoy's right wing party are being cheered in Spain. The vote today was not based on the results of the referendum, but on the votes in the Parlament, by the legally elected representative MPs. Rajoy will dissolve the Catalan government, force elections, and has admitted that if the winning party is one "continuing the path of illegality" they will be dissolved again and Madrid will continue to occupy the places of Catalan autonomic government officials. Democracy?

I am lost for words. I felt safer in the knowledge that the EU were watching, but they have decided to turn a blind eye. The member states are backing central spanish government, as a way of legitimizing central rule in respect to their own separatist regions, sending a message that this independence act will not be tolerated.

I wouldn't be surprised to see tanks rolling down Av. Diagonal next week out of the spanish military cuartel, to forcibly remove the catalan gov. who will likely barricade themselves and refuse to abandon their offices.

Whatever the result, whoever you agree with, it is undoubtedly a sad and historic moment for Catalunya

OhtoblazeswithElvira · 27/10/2017 20:58

El Pais - which is broadly equivalent to the Guardian

El Pais used to be moderate left. In the last few years it has definitely become a right-wing paper and is rabidly, furiously against Catalan independence, straying into anti-Catalan. I wouldn't treat it as an impartial voice in this issue at all.

DaisyLand · 27/10/2017 21:07

@toomuchtimereadingthreads2016 thanks for those words. What many people can’t see is that there is anti separatist that still want a referendum and whose voices are kept quiet.

Your words about PP are my own words.

This is what Ada has said today www.facebook.com/ada.colau/posts/1513997118680948

Many hate her but ... she says reality.

I agree with you there will be tanks in paseig de gracia next week, I’m going on holiday in 2 weeks there and I still not sure whether to go as I’m scared of the consequences of all this, feel more insecure there than 25 years living in the Basque Country where there was a terrorist group.

Wishing you all the best, Spain needs more people like you.

BCNChica · 27/10/2017 21:09

toomuchtimereadingthreads2016
I agree with everything you have said.

Some people seem to revel in the drama. For the people here it's a nightmare.

Doramaybe · 27/10/2017 21:11

BCN Chica,

Can you tell us more about why it is a nightmare.

I can guess, but maybe you might like to share. If not I totally understand given the day that it is for everyone.

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