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AIBU?

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Original poster

Independent Catalonia...

177 replies

littlebird7 · 27/10/2017 15:31

Are we cheering from the rooftops delighted that they finally got their independence? Or shocked and sad for our Spanish friends have such a huge split in their amazing country?

Or do we feel both emotions at once?

I am shocked and but knew it was coming, could see it was heading that way when 700 companies moved in one week....

Over to you

OP posts:
MissEliza · 27/10/2017 17:10

This is a mess. Both sides have behaved pretty poorly. I’ll be interested to see how the EU reacts.

DaisyLand · 27/10/2017 17:20

babybarrister I don’t know what happens with the Catalonian schools as never went to one. But I went to a Basque one and we were always encouraged to use the Basque in the school as in many families this was the only place you could learn the language , why learn it not to use it?; outside it you’d use the Spanish. This doesn’t happen only in Catalonia but anywhere , I’ve got a danish friend that went to Galician uni and her lessons were in Galician and so. Central government uses the language as a dangerous tool, something we should avoid (something Franco did) when in fact should be proud that in a country like Spain there is much variety of languages and cultures.

Btw I speak with my Catalonian friends and family in Spanish, most of the time their Spanish level is well ahead to those from central Spain, even the statistics say that Catalonians speak better Spanish than some other regions.

lljkk · 27/10/2017 17:31

I feel very sad for Catalonia. There are so many paths they could have taken towards independence that didn't have to involve this brinkmanship.

I am supposed to go to Barcelona for work in 2 weeks. hmmmm

TakeMe2Insanity · 27/10/2017 18:10

I feel that the Spanish government could have had a much better approach. I'm shocked at how they've abused their 'own' people surely if you love someone you let them go? Perhaps a bit too idealised.

Original poster
littlebird7 · 27/10/2017 18:14

To think the Spanish government could have offered a legal referendum and then made the case for Catalonia to stay and make it a positive choice but no....and one can only imagine that they didn't make that offer because they knew they would lose.

I am hoping the army stays away and proper talks will follow....

Sorry for the people on here in Spain, such a terrible worrying time.

OP posts:
Original poster
littlebird7 · 27/10/2017 18:16

misseliza

The EU haven't reacted at all, just said business as usual?!! How can it possibly ever be business as usual after such a declaration.

I am disappointed by this statement in so many ways. This is part of the EU, they have a huge stake in this if it goes to the wall, surely a voice of reason should be calling for a peaceful resolution no??

Why can I only hear silence....

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woman11017 · 27/10/2017 18:18

At least those who funded Leave and Catalonian 'independence' will be happy.

www.newsweek.com/catalan-referendum-russia-media-kremlin-674911

Despite the majority of people in both areas being against brexit and Catolonian 'independence'.

They don't have referendums in Spain mountford because of the pesky fascists who were in power before. But I have a feeling you know that.

bluebells1 · 27/10/2017 18:24

"Why can I only hear silence...."

I am surprised that you expected any action from the greedy, scare mongering EU! The EU is an absolute failure and now the ultra pro EU gang will pounce with long winded arguments about how everything will be reduced to a rubble without the 'mighty' EU.

GoingIn · 27/10/2017 18:26

I'm obviously a complete outsider but looks to me that both sides especially Spain have handled this catastrophically badly. A bit of dialogue would have gone a long way and maybe this could have been avoided? It just seems like such an unnecessary escalation of the situation. Both parties seem to have lost all control of it. How are they going to gain back any control and ensure some sort of outcome that doesn't make everybody's lives in Spain and Catalonia a misery for the foreseeable future? And I will be interested in finding out exactly what kind of plans for independence the Catalonian government has. I have a feeling it will have similar echoes than our current predicament here in UK......

Viviennemary · 27/10/2017 18:29

I greatly admire the Catalonian people in this bid for independence. The Spanish PM has handled it very badly indeed. It has even made me furious and I don't know that much about the historical facts. And as for the police behaviour. Could hardly believe what I saw on TV.

Doramaybe · 27/10/2017 18:36

They should invite Trudeau over for a week or two.

Canada solved the intractible problem of Quebecois Independence. All done now and everyone is happy. It took ten years I think. No deaths, no bloodshed, no civil war.

TALK. It is that simple. No need for all this shit from Rajoy either. No one in Madrid or Andalucia or wherever gives a damn. Just get it sorted.

ForalltheSaints · 27/10/2017 18:39

A legal referendum seems the best approach to me, and I think independence would be rejected.

My main hope is whatever happens it is peaceful.

Original poster
littlebird7 · 27/10/2017 19:04

woman

I am amazed you can say such a thing! You clearly know nothing about Spain's history and Catalonia and Franco. You can not just club Catalonia into the same category as Brexit!! Please at least have some facts about history before coming on here with comments that are so inaccurate.
One spans hundreds of years of history and Brexit is fairly recent and is totally and utterly different to Catalonia!

fgs please at least read wiki before posting

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woman11017 · 27/10/2017 19:07

Because referendums are the tools of demagogues and dictators, (to misquote thatch) democracies don't use them, but they're popular with fascists. Hence the illegality of holding one in Spain.

The majority of Catalonians don't want 'independence'.

Andrewofgg · 27/10/2017 19:08

Breaking up a country should require majorities in both parts in simultaneous referenda; and a majority of the voters, not just of those who vote.

That applies to Scotland too. It's everyone's Union, not just theirs.

Original poster
littlebird7 · 27/10/2017 19:09

bluebell

What I expect from the EU is to take the position that everything must be done to prevent violence and it will be not support Spain if it moves into Catalonia with force. The one line statement from Tusk almost seemed to support the use of force and certainly was not voicing caution OR calm!

If the EU can not step at a moment like this, they have a chance to truly shine and be instrumental in assisting a peaceful solution to this crisis then I give up! There is literally no hope.

There is no one else that will have the same authority.

So we will have to hope that the next stage is one that is well thought out, measured and calm.

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woman11017 · 27/10/2017 19:14

it will be not support Spain if it moves into Catalonia with force.

What, against an illegal coup?

Nice evening for Vlad and those who funded Leave though, tovarisch.

And fellow travellers.

Original poster
littlebird7 · 27/10/2017 19:14

andrewofgg

I agree to some degree, but how would smaller potential states ever win such a referendum? They would always be outnumbered and outgunned, therefore it would not seen as viable and representative for the smaller state to use such a tool leaving very few options but unrest and violence...

I do not support Scotland leaving the United Kingdom, I am actively against that happening. However, I do think it is important periodically to have votes (every 20-30 years or so) because I do not wish to keep any country part of the UK that does not wish to stay. I do not believe in forcing the issues through. It is far better for the scots to decide, and they did and it was in favour of keeping us together and I hope it always will be.

I am not sure Spain would have the same outcome given the chance...

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OhtoblazeswithElvira · 27/10/2017 19:15

I they want to be independent from Spain they have to follow the proper process

Isn't that what this whole thing is about? There is no proper process. The Spanish government said no, now or ever. The Catalan government offered unconditional dialogue, to a deafening silence from Mr Rajoy. The Spanish government have handled this so, so badly.

And I agree that the EU are missing an opportunity and misjudging the situation.

Goldenbug · 27/10/2017 19:16

Wonder if they fully thought it through? Not meaning to trivialise things, but what about football? Catalonians seem very proud of their Barcelona team, so what will happen when they leave the Spanish league? They'll be in a league with no competition, so no big TV deals, no good players wanted to play at that level...

If I were Spain's leader I would set a league up for them now, like Scotland has, and see if they change their minds.

Vitalogy · 27/10/2017 19:18

I wish them well too.

Original poster
littlebird7 · 27/10/2017 19:18

Yes totally. The Spanish government gave them no choice. None. There was never going to be one. So Catalonia have my sympathy. Year after year they tried to talk, demanded so many times their chance to speak and be heard. It is quite a chilling prospect to wonder what Madrid will do next....

I live there for six years of my life and the Spanish are wonderful people, I hope for their sake this will be sorted out quickly and painlessly.

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Original poster
littlebird7 · 27/10/2017 19:20

goldenbug

I think they are probably considering what currency to use, central banks, funding, defence and a multitude of other very very pressing decisions and actions, I should think the football team is the very least of their worries, no offence

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woman11017 · 27/10/2017 19:20

It is quite a chilling prospect to wonder what Madrid will do next

Regionalism, nationalism and fascism are always close bedfellows.

I'm sure all the posters here are as repulsed by them as the Spanish government is.

RavingRoo · 27/10/2017 19:20

I wonder how long it will be before the Basque seperatists try the same thing? They won’t keep things civilized either. I forsee much bloodshed if Spain puts down too heavy of a hand.