....to not invite this girl to my daughter's party because she's a nightmare!!!

[smokinhotchilli]

This is so tricky! And all this is new to me so any advice would be great.
My daughter has been friends with a girl called Rose (made up name) for two years. They are both 4. There's a group of kids who have been close since nursery & they have all started school & are in the same class.
Have never been very close to Rose's mum but the girls occasionally meet up at weekends .... Or used to...
Since starting school, Rose has become a bit of a nightmare. According to my daughter, none of the group want to play with her, she hits, shouts, pushes, doesn't listen and is really naughty (all told to me by my daughter & the other kids) and they often tell the teacher .... I've seen Rose doing all of this before & after school.
My daughter is refusing to have her at her birthday party which is really soon & won't invite her. The mum texted to ask what's happening for my daughters birthday...
What would you do?
AIBU to ask the mum if everything is ok at home & mention Rose's behaviour in a gentle & considerate way? And then explain that my daughter doesn't want her at the party? Arghhhhh! Don't want to upset anyone.

I've not read the full thread but I would stick to the following.

A) If it's a whole class party I would invite Rose. Depending on the location her mum may stay (such as soft play or a hired hall) and therefore behaviour management falls to her mum.
B) If it is a small handful from the class you either lie and say numbers don't stretch to accommodate Rose or you override your daughter and invite her, but again make sure the mother is there to undertake behaviour management.

I would not ask if thinga are okay at home.

What better way to show your dd that she doesn't need to tolerate bullying behaviour than by inviting Rose and STEPPING IN when required.

Totally agree with Billben. No way should you force your DD to invite a child who has hurt her. Not a good lesson in life.

The OP only has a band of 4 year olds' testimony to go on really. A chat with the teacher about Rose is in order (birthday party aside) in any case. You may find out a thing or two.

What better way to show your dd that she doesn't need to tolerate bullying behaviour than by showing her that she doesn't need to be nice to someone who hurts her and she deserves better than that?

Billben
No, OP's DD does not need to learn to understand that she has to put up with a child at her own birthday party who hits her, pushes her and is generally mean to her just to be seen nice.
What she does need to learn is that she doesn't have to put up with other people's violent behaviour towards her no matter the excuse.
The problem with this statement is the op doesn't really know that any of this is happening for sure and I hardly think it would be as bad as you described and the teacher to never have let parents know about it. They were friends in pre-school and this "bully" as you describe her seemed to have got along fine with her friends. It is up to the op to establish what exactly is going on before laying all the blame at Rose's door

You need to consider very very carefully how other parents will view your decision to leave out a four year child whom has long been established as part of a group. Not only will you forever ruin the relationship with Rose's mother whom is unlikely to forgive you for hurting such a young child you also should consider the years of consequences this will have on the children's friendships and the general dynamic which may turn toxic very quickly after this.

It is quite beyond me that you consider your four year old's opinion should carry such weight, no matter how mature she is for her age she simply does not have the cognitive ability to understand the hurt she will be inflicting on this little girl.

Nor do I think it is a lofty ideal to teach your child to be cruel and lacking in tolerance. Yes Rose's behaviour needs to be worked on, but your child could suffer something similar in the future and I am guessing compassion and understanding, as well as boundaries etc. Teaching your child to exclude others is a dangerous precedent. Rose should be invited, monitored ( and removed if she isn't well behaved) and you should as the adult come to a balanced view about the dynamics of the friendship and not rely on hearsay from a group of four year olds.
I am astonished that you would even consider doing anything else.

Hiddley your posts really have stood out to me and not in a good way. I truly hope you don't have daughters.

All I've read from you and other posters is:

'Poor rose'
'Isn't your daughter kind OP why would she exclude someone'
'My heart breaks for rose'
'Your DD needs to learn the world doesn't revolve around her'

And we all wonder why domestic violence is so prevalent amongst us women eh.

This child is hitting, scratching and name calling OP's DD and she is obviously very upset about it (as any other child would be) you're all so focused on poor rose and think her happiness trumps OP's DD when she hasn't done anything wrong she just wants to enjoy her party, it's her day and on this day yes it does revolve around her. I wouldn't want someone who hit me at my party so why would I do that to my DD? What lesson is that teaching her? Not a good one.

I'm not saying write off this child, a few posters have made excellent suggestions on how to approach the mother in a truthful way and try and resolve things. But do not put other people's feelings above your own especially when you're getting hit and names are being called.

Actually when my ds's were at their worst I would not have minded a text asking how things were at home. Whilst not an excuse perhaps other parents knowing there was a combination of likely ASC and serious illness at home might have increased their tolerance of the behaviour at what was a very, very difficult time for us all.

OH FFS. Have you just brought domestic violence onto a thread about four year olds?

Be kind, if Rose was not like this before, she could be finding the transition to school very hard. It's very difficult for little ones to get used to staying at school, concentrating and the expectations placed, for 6 hours a day. To exclude her from the group is mean, and not supportive. Time to teach your dd about being kind, Mabey Rose finds school hard and is like this as she may be unhappy. Ask mum to come and supervise Rose at the pRty. As it's an established friendship group, Rose mum will roughly know who's birthdays are coming up, and might have heard from others that your dd is having a party, but sad Rose has not been invited.

Strawberry mummy

The problem with your view is that you have no concrete evidence that any of this has actually happened. Rose is guilt without a trial. The only way the op will get the full picture would be to speak to the form tutor and ask how it is going and observing for herself any violence or misconduct.

Hanging a child ( socially) based on such flimsy hearsay is damaging to all the children involved

Strawberry you can hardly compare a little 4 year old probably anxious at school, to a violent adult🙄

The way I'm reading this Strawberry, is that this merry bunch of 4 year olds are wilfully excluding Rose and gaining great delight and comraderie in so doing. I've tried as much as I might to not say it, but it is far more likely that they are the bullies than it being Rose.

Definitely wouldn't leave a child out. She's 4 years old. You would be there to supervise?

Are you considering inviting all of the group who have been friends since nursery except Rose?

WTF!

This is NOT a whole class party, nor even a whole friendship group that Rose is being excluded from.

The OP's child, whose party this is, does not like Rose. The other invitees do not like Rose.

Rose's mum has apparently got wind of the party and is angling for invite, but in this case I would simply say sorry, small party and Rose not invited this time.

What about all the other children that OP child knows but also not invited? If their mums also ask for invite are they going to be added in too?

And think about this - if OP invites Rose just how good a time is she going to have with children who do not like her or want her there?

Op has seen Rose for herself, the teacher would not divulge confidential information, abput Rose to op! Op should meet up for coffee with Rose mum, have a chat, Mabey she might open up!

It is a nursery friendship group Rose is being excluded from!

@StrawberryMummy90
Domestic Violence!! She’s 4 for crying out loud. Let me say it again 4!!!!!!
How about the OP is about to teach her daughter on the first lesson of how to bully someone. Exclusion.
How cruel to not invite a 4 year old who was probably good friends with her daughter last Tuesday and fell out over the sandpit/water table.

Raise the issue with the nursery teachers and let them sort out behavioural issues there.
This is not a bunch of 8 year olds you’re talking about.

The he says she says is commonplace in four year olds, it could that they are all scratching and name calling. I am just amazed anyone would consider exclusion to be a good idea! Embrace the problem, speak to Rose's parents if you are genuinely worried (you may hear a very different side to the story) and try to encourage your child to be forgiving IF something has happened. Switch to a all year party if you haven't the courage to do any of the above but don't leave one four year old child.

I had a message home via MIL a couple of weeks ago that my son (Y1) had pushed a boy over and ‘seriously hurt him.’ Well I had visions of hospital trips, stitches...only the next day I saw the bit and he looked fine. (MIL does have form for dramatics )

So I collared the teacher and she said at this time of term there’s always some pushing and shoving as kids are flexing their independence and the incidents are pretty much always 50-50 but on this occasion the other boy had come off worse. And they were doing lots of work in class about being kind, using their voices not their hands, and not to worry unduly.

So it could be all the kids are at it only Rose is a bit stronger/rougher so getting the bad press. I certainly wouldn’t take one five year child’s account as gospel.

Incidentally we saw said boy at the sports centre a later day and they were the best of buddies running around together. His mother didn’t seem bothered either and certainly didn’t ask me if all was ok at home...

Aero if a child is being constantly hit, scratched and name called then I would definitely talk to the parent and explain, without naming the other child.

Given the the OP has not said that her daughter or any of the mother's of her daughter's friends have had such a chat, the OP needs to speak to the teacher to establish whether things are as bad as they seem.

It isn't divulging confidential information for crying out loud.

But the thing is, nursery friendship doesn't stay forever, and it's only natural some of them drift apart.
Rose may change, and OP's DD may form friendship with her again in the future. But now, she doesn't want to be her friend.

Similar happened to me recently. Dd wanted all the girls in the class except one! Again lots of stories of how she has done naughty things in school and none of the girls like her. I insisted that she was going to come and we would give her a chance to be good. She was absolutely fine at the party and has since become one of dds really good friends!