....to not invite this girl to my daughter's party because she's a nightmare!!!

[smokinhotchilli]

This is so tricky! And all this is new to me so any advice would be great.
My daughter has been friends with a girl called Rose (made up name) for two years. They are both 4. There's a group of kids who have been close since nursery & they have all started school & are in the same class.
Have never been very close to Rose's mum but the girls occasionally meet up at weekends .... Or used to...
Since starting school, Rose has become a bit of a nightmare. According to my daughter, none of the group want to play with her, she hits, shouts, pushes, doesn't listen and is really naughty (all told to me by my daughter & the other kids) and they often tell the teacher .... I've seen Rose doing all of this before & after school.
My daughter is refusing to have her at her birthday party which is really soon & won't invite her. The mum texted to ask what's happening for my daughters birthday...
What would you do?
AIBU to ask the mum if everything is ok at home & mention Rose's behaviour in a gentle & considerate way? And then explain that my daughter doesn't want her at the party? Arghhhhh! Don't want to upset anyone.

I'm on the fence.

As it's not whole class then she can invite who she wants.

But, from the OP, it sounds as if Rose might be the one being excluded & bullied.

I would be interested in knowing her mum's reason for asking about the party tbh.

Shae that she didn't say what her concerns were.

Can you meet the mum? Explain to her that your dd has been hit, pushed and called names by her dd and that she doesn’t want to invite her to her party and could she have a word about her dds behaviour?

I’m not saying the behaviour needs to go unchecked!!!!!

You get to the core of the problem as well!!! Giving out consequences for such behaviour is s short term fix. But obviously needs to be done. The reasons behind the behaviour also needs to be looked at and dealt with!

We're doing such and such for the birthday. Would you mind staying for the party? The teachers tell me that they haven't been getting on as well as usual at school, but if we're both there then I'm sure we can smooth out any bumps

This is spot on. I would always be aware that you only ever hear one side of the story and you don't know that your DD and her friends aren't provoking the situation. They're 4 and they're not going to be able to tell you about a situation from both sides. You're friends with the mum, Rose might be going through a phase and this is the best compromise. You can reassure your daughter that Rose's mum will be there to keep an eye on her and you can give the little girl the benefit of the doubt and you may well see the other side to the story or that actually, they do all play nicely with each other.

Heydey In the absence of the OP to respond and the absence of you having read the thread, it is a small group of a previously established friendship group of which Rose used to be a part. Now Rose has fallen out of favour and would be the only one to be excluded (of the friendship group from pre-school). It would not be a problem for OP to exclude her but for the fact that the Mum has already enquired about birthday arrangements.

Small party of less than half the class it's fine to not invite her. We invited a boy my DS really didn't want there to a whole class party as I said it wasn't fair, I was insistent that no one was excluded. He ruined it and upset my DS, I apologised to DS, explained why I did it but did say he wouldn't have to invite him again. They were about 7 I think and eventually became friends although the boy is still tricky even at nearly 12.

A couple of things make me uncomfortable about this. It is a long thread so I may have missed it somewhere but has the teacher ever spoken to you or have you ever spoken to the teacher about the hitting pushing etc Rose is inflicting on her classmates or is it only from the children you are hearing this? If its only from the children I think you need to find out what is actually happening before you exclude this child.

I am also uncomfortable with you mentioning that it is not only your daughter not wanting Rose but her other friends don't want her there either! To me that sounds like they have decided as a group they don't like Rose and are hell bent on excluding her. I really don't think other children should have any influence or say in who you invite to your daughters party.

I am not excusing Rose's behaviour at all if what your daughter is saying is true but they are 7 weeks into school and chances are Rose is finding it difficult to transition and is getting frustrated, and lashing out although this behaviour is probably not her fault and she is not being "naughty" as such it may well be distressing for her classmates to witness.

If you really feel inviting Rose is not an option that's your decision but please be sure of the facts before you let a group of 4 year olds exclude a child like this.

hiddley of course other people have feelings too. But other people's feelings do not trump our own.

Rose's feelings are not more important that the OP's daughter's.

The OP's daughter doesn't want to be hit.

I totally agree that we don't let children dominate these things. I remember times when my son didn't want to invite suchandsuch because they hadn't played much this week and he'd taken it really personally. I also remember when my daughter didn't want to invite someone for an equally spurious reason. Of course I talked them round in those instances. We talked about what friends are and what friends are not and understanding that other people might see things differently and have different interests and priorities etc.

But I would never have insisted that they invited a child who hit them and, when it happened, didn't.

A lot of work is done with children in EY and KS1 about "what makes a good friend". Children are told that hitting/pushing/saying unkind things is not what a friend does - so I'm guessing the OP's daughter doesn't feel that Rose is much of a friend anyway at the moment.

And they are also taught that they don't need to be friends with someone who hits them. That they should tell a teacher and find someone else to play with who behaves like a friend.

I can tell you now that if you get a class of 4/5/6 year olds together and ask them what a friend does, responses will include:

Let's you play with them if you are lonely
Looks after you when you are sad
Is kind to you
Doesn't say mean things
Doesn't push or hit you

Are always top of the list.

Someone who isn't a good friend:

Says mean things.
Hits you.
Doesn't let you play with them.

Disclaimer: you're allowed to not play with someone who hits your or says mean things.

I wouldn't invite Rosy to the party. But I would be honest with her mum and would tell her exactly why. I really don't see why my child should have to put up with somebody at her own birthday party who hits her and whom she isn't really friends with just to be nice. In school she has to put up having to be around Rosie, but at her own birthday party? No way.

Today 01:06 Bunnyfuller

Rose hasn't been very kind to DD recently...

Beware tho, kids are experts at only presenting themselves as the victim

thats what I thought too. If all the other children are saying they don't want Rose at the party etc, it does sound as if they're colluding with each other to exclude this one child, who, as others have said, may just be struggling temporarily, in which case she needs to be helped rather than ostracised. It's worth noting - ime anyway - in cases where a child of this age is an actual bully, the wider group tend not to say much about it

Compromise.

Don't invite her to the party. DO invite her for a playdate at another time.

See for yourself what is happening. . Be open to the possibility that the other children may be doing something (however inadvertantly) that is not helping the situation (triggers for ds include light touch and loud noises) that you could teach your dd to avoid doing. Often children who can't cope in a busy class can be good on a 1:1 basis with adult support. The two children are likely to be in the same class for a long time and whilst they may never become close friends if they can learn to tolerate each other it will be mutually beneficial.

I have a 4 year old DD (in foundation) and maybe I'm wrong but I wouldn't force friendships, if your DD doesn't want her there I wouldn't invite 'Rose' to a small party (whole class party would be a different strategy).

I think you'll just have to be straight with her Mum and say your DD hasn't put her on the invitee list, be warned it might affect your friendship with her too.

I wouldn’t leave a girl who’s 4 out. Simple as that. Your dd needs to learn to understand that & there should b enough adults to supervise & control the girl.
Maybe even ask the Mum to stay if she likes if would help.

Invite the poor child to the party, but ask her mum to come and observe at the party. You could meet up for a coffee with her to discuss whats being said about rose and say you really dont want to leave her out and want to resolve any problems Xx

I wouldn't exclude at four years old. Over 8, yes, but not so little.
Watch Rose and the others interact like a hawk and catch any escalating behaviour. It will be interesting to see the dynamic and if Rose is feeling excluded and insecure (this wouldn't necessarily be the other girls fault of course) and what triggers the pushing etc. You can always call her mum or dad to collect her if you feel it just isn't working.
I think any child of that age needs to be given a chance.
Good luck OP, I hope the party is a success!

I'd echo those who say, speak to the teacher. She may well say that Rose is being excluded by your DD's friendship group and is hitting your in frustration when she is told that she's "not allowed" to play with the others.

If it's an established friendship group and this issue is new and never been raised before, it would be really unkind to leave her out. Your dd is too young to understand all this really so whilst she should have input she shouldn't get final say. I'd have a talk with her about being kind, nobodys perfect and maybe Rose is finding it hard to learn about friendships so needs a bit of help. Id be quite blunt with the mum and say something like 'The party is xxxxx. You'll get the invite soon. Can you come And keep an eye on Rose as since they've moved into reception she's seemed a bit unsettled and she's hit some of the others and shouted at them. Just to make sure she's ok and things run smoothly. ' i wouldnt pussyfoot about waffling on about 'problems at home' etc. If this has never been raised before you can't just drop her and if her mum is unaware she will see for herself at the party if there is a problem.

Threads like this always make me very sad.

Personally, I don't see why the DD should be forced to have someone she doesn't want at her party, especially someone that seems to be erring towards bully behaviour, BUT I might be tempted to invite the girl and see her behaviour with my own eyes. Invite the mother, tell her what the other children have been saying she does and agree that you will both just hang back and watch the behaviour of all the kids and only interfere if it looks like Rose is becoming aggressive.

Rose cod have other issues going in, in the background. I would invite her, but mum has to stay, make that clear. Or if your dad absolutely does not want her, just a small party with a few good friends.

It seems dad to leave out one of a friendship group. Mum mabey lonely, mabey meet up for tea/coffee. She mabey finding it stressful with Rose, and could do with a friend right now.

If it's whole class party, it's mean to exclude one child. But it's not. Why does OP needs to invite someone her birthday girl doesn't want?
It's a different story if dd wants to , but mum doesn't. But in this case, dd doesn't. That's her(birthday girl's) decision, imo.

Only you know Rose. What was she like before school? Often you can pick up children that might be tricky. If it’s a sudden change it’s probably school. Especially as it’s a long term and new environment. I’d also quietly speak to the teacher and see what they’ve picked up. Yes you need to make sure that your dd gets the message it’s not okay to be hurt but only you know if this is typical behaviour from Rose. I’d speak to the teacher and maybe gently ask her mum how Rose is finding school and go from there.

wouldn’t leave a girl who’s 4 out. Simple as that. Your dd needs to learn to understand that

No, OP's DD does not need to learn to understand that she has to put up with a child at her own birthday party who hits her, pushes her and is generally mean to her just to be seen nice.
What she does need to learn is that she doesn't have to put up with other people's violent behaviour towards her no matter the excuse.

I know what kids are like. Exclude Rose, and your DD, Mary, Anne, Jane and LouLou will go into school the following day lording it over Rose about what a FUN time they had. If I was Rose I'd probably feel like smacking you one then too (I'm an adult though, so don't engage in violence, lest it need to be spelled out).