....to not invite this girl to my daughter's party because she's a nightmare!!!

[smokinhotchilli]

This is so tricky! And all this is new to me so any advice would be great.
My daughter has been friends with a girl called Rose (made up name) for two years. They are both 4. There's a group of kids who have been close since nursery & they have all started school & are in the same class.
Have never been very close to Rose's mum but the girls occasionally meet up at weekends .... Or used to...
Since starting school, Rose has become a bit of a nightmare. According to my daughter, none of the group want to play with her, she hits, shouts, pushes, doesn't listen and is really naughty (all told to me by my daughter & the other kids) and they often tell the teacher .... I've seen Rose doing all of this before & after school.
My daughter is refusing to have her at her birthday party which is really soon & won't invite her. The mum texted to ask what's happening for my daughters birthday...
What would you do?
AIBU to ask the mum if everything is ok at home & mention Rose's behaviour in a gentle & considerate way? And then explain that my daughter doesn't want her at the party? Arghhhhh! Don't want to upset anyone.

If it's just a party for 5/6 then you can text.
"We are just planning it now and it's a small event - just a few friends. DD is still trying to decide who to invite as her friendship circle has widened since starting school"

TALK to her mother, either see if she's free for a chat or ring her. She may have no idea what is going on and it may be something she can sort out fairly easily.

Have you had your first parent/teacher meeting yet OP? If not, ask about the dynamic. The teacher will know.

dearAnnie no not an answer from one of your posts! :)

I'm getting annoyed at the idea that girls should just put up with whatever shit is coming their way just because they need to learn to be 'kind' and to play nicely with other people, whether you like them or not.

I'd rather see girls learning that it's OK to state your likes and dislikes and not put up with being hit or called names.
In effect, I'd rather to see them treated as we treat boys (and a 4~5 yo boy who is hitting other children isn't seen as a poor child who is struggling to settle but as a child who is becoming a bully. I don't think there would be any thread on MN if it was about two boys...)

No, if it will look like you're leaving this child out, please don't. Maybe Rose has special needs, or finds school difficult. You should be able to supervise interactions and ensure that if she does spoil things, you can step in. Or invite the mum? When my two were small, parents came to parties as well. It's not all about your child making decisions. My son wanted to leave out a child with SN one year. I informed him, no, in no uncertain terms. My DS has been routinely excluded from parties. Not for misbehaviour but because he has mild learning issues and is 'not cool'. I've had to comfort him while he sobbed uncontrollably about former friends ignoring him. Rose maybe doesn't have SN, but a lot of kids who do, start to exhibit challenging behaviour in Reception or year 1.

Having been though this, I would say that 4-5 year olds are fickle. One of the kids your child invited may well not want her when their turn comes around and your child will be left bewildered.

At this age and given the history, I would ask Rose. It has only been 7 weeks max in reception, it's hardly like they're all besties for life.

If you can't handle one renegade 4 year old terror, you shouldn't be having a party

It's not about being able to 'handle' it. I could handle it (and an unsupportive parent) no problem, but I still wouldn't invite them.

What about the message that it sends to the OP's own child.

Rose's feelings are more important than yours.
Rose is the priority.
Being 'nice' to someone who hurts you is more important than standing up for yourself.
I'm not listening to you.
When you're next upset by the way someone has treated you, don't tell me; I won't support you.

In fact, it's not teaching anything about kindness or tolerance.

Nice, kind and tolerant are NOT the same thing.

Need to be more tolerant of being hit Did I say to be more tolerant of being hit? Erm..nope! More tolerant of this little girl & what she is going through.

There is no suggestion of Rose hitting anyone pre school, and they have known her for 2 years.

My dd has know a girl (let's call her Jane) all her life. When Jane started school she started to do much the same as Rose is doing now. I am very close with her mum, and dd is very close to Jane. Unfortunately dd copped a lot of it. I KNEW this was unusually for Jane, and her mum would often be in tears as she feared losing our friendship. They managed to fix it at school to a degree and it got better.

Fast forward to over a year later, and Jane has been diagnosed with autism, and her, we now know, it due to anxiety & the "fight or flight" response she gets when she starts to get overwhelmed. There has been no violence from Jane for quite some time now, because when you know what's going wrong, you can work to fix it.

To label Rose as a "bit of a nightmare" 6 weeks into school, is not being very understanding of any struggles she may have/is going through.

hiddle really? Is it why you have so many threads on here after play dates that have gone wrong? Because people clearly just weren't able to handle it and should just not have invited a child to come over.
Because you know, it has nothing to do with the behaviour of the child or with the reaction of the parent
I'm sure that sort of comment would go down well on those threads.

Just, actually saying the same thing to the teacher, who has exactly the same problem of not being able to protect the children in that class from being hit by Rose.....

Bottom line is, no it's not always easy. Otherwise, you never come across that sort of issue!

4 year olds don’t hit out because they are just naughty Exactly! Especially as the bahaviour has started in conjunction with starting school!!

How awful. Perhaps it’s time to give your daughter a lesson about tolerance and inclusion? 4 year olds don’t hit out because they are just naughty. Other things maybe going on. Excluding her isn’t the answer.

My DD was bullied for 3 years. It started when she was 4 and continued till she was 7 because everybody seemed to adopt the soft approach and was full of understanding for the bully, including stuff like, oh, they're just children, just getting used to being together etc. All the while my DD would come back from school crying because she was pushed around, was a focus for emotional abuse where the other girl would be hugging her one day and telling her she wants to be her best friend only to totally exclude her the next day, call her names, push her around and tell her that everybody hates her.
Even at 4, children can be proper bullies. I put a stop to it when I had enough and funny enough, the hard approach worked. I told the school that if the behaviour doesn't stop I will require a meeting with the principal and the parents of the other girl. All of a sudden, there was a lot of focus on the bully and she stopped.
This kind of "let's be all friends and love each other behaviour" only serves to enable bullies. Rose will grow up with the sense of entitlement, feeling that no matter how she behaves, children will be obliged to be friends with her because their goody two-shoes parents can't recognise a bully if they see one.

No, it's teaching the child that

You are not the centre of the universe.
You can not dominate the universe.
Other people have feelings too.
Other people can be hurt.
If you're ever on the other side of the coin, don't worry, because people are generally kind.
I've got your back, but I need you to be kind.

and her behaviour we now know

I appreciate you’ve seen a bit of bad behaviour yourself but I’d also be inclined to ask the teacher how ‘bad’ the behaviour really is before making a decision. Even in year 1 my son all all about how X pushes him over all the time and Y is naughty every day. I don’t take his word for it as he’s five and a bit of a story teller

I’d probably be leaving Rose off the invitation list if she was a bit older but not at age four. If she does act up it’s not like it’d be that difficult to intervene especially in such a small group. I’d also ask mum to stay and be honest that there’s been some possible issues (and if it is genuine I’m sure she’ll know.) She then then always take Rose home if she’s genuinely that awful.

MarieAntoinettezzz

totally agree!

At 4 years old it would be quite reasonable to expect the parents to stay. My DD had a similar "friend", and luckily we had enough adults around at party times to keep her in check.

What a horrible dilemma OP.
I think the only solution is honesty here.
Let mum know in a kind way the situation as otherwise her dd is going to keep getting excluded from things, poor girl.
Don't ask if things are ok at home as that implies it's mums fault.
Tell her you'd love Rose to be there but dd has said she's been hitting and is upset about her coming to party.
Ask mum if she'd be able to come along with Rose as well.

Have we already explored what happened first, Rose's behaviour deteriorating or the 'friendship group' deciding they didn't want to play with her?

I think Rose's behaviour could easily be caused by being the one 'chosen' to be left out. 4 year olds can be like this.

OP I would have a word with the teacher (along the lines of 'my DD suddenly doesn't want to spend time with Rose, have you noticed any problems with their friendship at school') to make sure Rose's behaviour is upsetting your DD, not the other way round.

Girls can be very clicky and exclude a child sorry at 4 I wouldn't have this it sounds more like 5 is a crown and one always gets left out (have seen this lots in 25 years of childcare....I would be looking at all the others and seeing if one is a ring leader and spreading the Rose is nasty don't invite her story....no child is good all the time but some get condemned because they do something once or twice and get a reputation. I have a 2 year old who has bit twice, another parent has told her child to keep away, the child has told everyone else to keep away as x is nasty......but the older child was the biggest biter out and actually bit a flap of skin off of daddy.....now other parents are saying x is a biter....and they are worried about their children...the 2 bites never left a mark and were when the child was teething. so reputation is easily built up and spread.

My DD was bullied for 3 years. It started when she was 4 and continued till she was 7 ... Even at 4, children can be proper bullies

Your poor daughter, I hope everything is OK now.

However, your example is different. There is NO suggestion from OP that Rose's behaviour was present before she started school. Therefore, this behaviour is new. It could be that she isn't coping with school for various reason.

I just find that the need for OP & many posters here to rush in and name this child 'a bit of a nightmare" a "terror" and a "bully" after 6 weeks at school, without knowing anything else about her situation shows a huge lack of compassion and understanding.

MarieA

It seems you need some lessons in tolerance. A 4 or 5 year old boy who hits out is seen as a possible bully? Really?? I don’t think like that?

Let’s just write off any 4 or 5 year old boy, who hits out shall we? Let’s not be mindlful that other things maybe at play, or forget at that age communicating feelings and needs is hard, so often shows itself in behaviour.

Children are NOT born naughty. Whether they are boys or girls. How not to handle it is labelling them as naughty, bullies or excluding them from things.

These children are 4 and 5 for goodness sake.

Could it be that the children in your DDs friendship group are shutting her out and this is what is making Rose behave in this way because she is desperate to be included? If it's a whole class party then it would be terrible not to invite her. If, on the other hand, it's a small group then I think you would prevent a whole lot of unhappiness by not having her there if your DD really does not want to play with her.

I am surprised at those people who insist that you must invite a girl who hits/pushes your daughter to her birthday party. Tell the mum that its very small - you said 5/6 and she is not on the list. You don't have to be mean about it - am Im sure you wont, but I wouldn't invite someone who appeared to be a bully to my childs party. if you are close with the mum you might ask separately if everything is ok, but if no I wouldn't bother.

I had the same with my DDs 6th birthday. I insisted she invited the other girl despite similar problems to Rose. I spoke to the mum and she said she would stay. She arrived 15 mins late. All the girls were playing. The mum the. Said she had to go off and do something'quickly' but would be back soon. She arrived 5 mins before the end of the party. Her DD had been so naughty. Completely ruined the party. I'm a teacher so well able to handle her and no problem telling her to stop. But she upset my DD on her party and three other girls. Pushing, kicking, destroying what they had made. My DD still talks about it three years later and how she hated the whole experience.

I am such a tolerant person and always willing to help others but this was a lesson I really wish I had not made my DD have. It was her birthday and ruined by a girl and her parent who had no respect for others.