....to not invite this girl to my daughter's party because she's a nightmare!!!

[smokinhotchilli]

This is so tricky! And all this is new to me so any advice would be great.
My daughter has been friends with a girl called Rose (made up name) for two years. They are both 4. There's a group of kids who have been close since nursery & they have all started school & are in the same class.
Have never been very close to Rose's mum but the girls occasionally meet up at weekends .... Or used to...
Since starting school, Rose has become a bit of a nightmare. According to my daughter, none of the group want to play with her, she hits, shouts, pushes, doesn't listen and is really naughty (all told to me by my daughter & the other kids) and they often tell the teacher .... I've seen Rose doing all of this before & after school.
My daughter is refusing to have her at her birthday party which is really soon & won't invite her. The mum texted to ask what's happening for my daughters birthday...
What would you do?
AIBU to ask the mum if everything is ok at home & mention Rose's behaviour in a gentle & considerate way? And then explain that my daughter doesn't want her at the party? Arghhhhh! Don't want to upset anyone.

IF it was the case that the OPs child was being left in tears by Rose, then hell or high water would not get me to invite Rose to the party. This doesn't seem to be the case here though.

I wouldn't invite Rose. Your daughter is entitled to look forward to her party and enjoy it without fear of it being spoiled by someone hurting her or her friends.
But I would respond to the mum by saying that you are only having a small group and your daughter hasn't included Rose, but would she like to meet up with you and both your children for a coffee/play. Then you can watch the dynamic and your daughter can be reassured that you will step in if needed.
And I'd have a word with the teacher, see what she has observed

Everyone saying op has only her dds word for the behaviour are missing the part where op has witnessed the behaviour herself.

No I did spot she’d said that, but she’s seen this before and after school and presumably is not there all day. During the day there could be equal displays from the other kids. I’m struggling to believe all the other children are paragons of virtue and there’s just the one ‘naughty kid’

Several children I know (including my own DS) who had behavioural problems settling into school ending up getting diagnpsis of autism or dyspraxia etc. I know people on mumsnet often get annoyed if you suggest a possibility of special needs but I think it is important to consider it. I am so grateful to all the parents of children in my son's class who saw he was just a very small boy going through a hard time and who always included him at things like parties.

My own two children who are only 5 and 8 have an awarness that not everyone behaving in a disruptive way is a 'bad' person. They know that some of those children are acting that way due to special needs or anxiety or because it is taking them longer to learn the right way to behave for whatever reason. They know they should tell a teacher if they are being hurt etc but not to write off such a young classmate as simply 'bad'.

you can hardly compare a little 4 year old probably anxious at school, to a violent adult

I don't think that was the point that was being made.

I think the point that was being made was that a great number of people are telling the OP that she should prioritise Rose's feelings over her own daughter's. And that one of the most toxic discourses that we have is that "girls are nice".

Whatever the reasons behind Rose's behaviour, four year olds have very little control over their own lives. I think that letting them choose who they can invite to their own birthday party is a very basic thing.

Now, if it transpires that the OP's daughter and her friends are being unkind to Rose and Rose is merely retaliating, well that's different. But I would suspect that, if Rose's behaviour at school were that bad and, tbh, a child's behaviour has to be pretty bad IME for other children to reject them, then Rose's mum would already know about this because Rose would have been upset and mum would have been down to school.

She's unlikely to be chasing invitations to a birthday party in that case.

Being inclusive is an important skill (especially for girls) and it can be very traumatising to be left out at 4 years old. especially for girls What does that mean? Why is it especially important for girls to be inclusive?

It's pretty traumatising to go to school every day and be hit and shouted at, tbf.

Exclusivity is a girl's weapon of choice Annie

Poor wee Rose

Poor wee rose is exactly what I thought!

Does the OP have a chance to speak to the class teacher before the party ?

If there is actual hitting going on, the teacher will be aware. The merry band of 4 year olds will be queueing up to tell the teacher about bad Rose.

This in bucket loads, I feel quite sorrry for rose. Thing is this week it's rose being left out, next week it might be your dd, so don't be expecting rose to be your dd back up friend when she's being left out

I think that letting them choose who they can invite to their own birthday party is a very basic thing.
Yes the dd can choose for herself, however op dd needs to know there are always consequences for those choices which will upset rose and maybe the op dd at a later date.

It's especially important for girls because it's not something in my experience girls are good at and boys are better at. Adolescent girls in friendships groups almost for sport seem to turn on one member of the friendship circle periodically and it's very nasty and vicious. Boys friendship circles rarely have this dynamic and I think that it's a problem that lasts into adulthood.

Men are much better at sticking together and supporting each other in work where woman can be less naturally supportive of one another though I do see this changing as I get older.

Poor little Rose having the kids and Mums ganging up on her, never mind next week it'll be another 4 year old. The school staff will be aware of spitefulness though.

Inhave to say, it's fascinating to see how one child can be portrayed as a poor child that needs lots of encouragement and support. A child that other children are expected to be kind to etc... because things are hard when you start school (unsettling environment etc). And they need support, not to feel excluded or being mean to. Because that's how 4yo are. Just children.

And the other is one who is telling lies, always present herself as a victim and is likely to have excluded another child. One that is just part of clique. Because that's how children (4yo girls...) are. And cleariynthats unacceotable and they should be taught to be a nicer and kinder person.

Fwiw I don't think that it's possible to generalise about 4yo in that way (either the first or the second type of statement). To start with they are incompatible!

Let's see how it would work if we swap those statements around.
And Rose is the one who is presenting herself as a victim when she actively excluingannd being mean to people. And really she needs to taught to be a nicer and kinder person.

And the dd is a 4yo who is struggling with starting school, working out friendship and hwonto deal with the vast array of people around her (with different ways, issues and temperament). As any 4yo would do. So she needs to be supported and protected because it's so hard for her.....

I actually believe that all those statements are true.
ROse needs to buckle up and start respecting people boundaries. Thatnincludes hitting an de calling people names. She also need support.
The dd needs to learn to enforce her own boundaries whilst also learning to accept that no one is perfect (not even her) and how to behave around other children who dintbthings the same way than her.

A b'day party is NOT the place to do any of that!
It's a time for fun, somehow a reward and something to share with those close to you.
If one wanted to teach the dd some kindness and be nicer around Rose, then a play date Would be a much better bet. As well as having a well rehearsed 'tactic' on how to enforce boundaries (e.g. 'I do not like to be hit. If you do that again, I will not play with you again today') that would be shared with the teacher so that they know what's going on.

But using something thatbis really a big thing for a 4yo, their b'day party is mean to the b'day child and to their guests TBH.

Don't get me wrong though- the ways boys bully other boys is terrible as well but it tends to differ

Teenage girls will as a group call another girl they are meant to be friends with to tell her they are all hanging out together without her. Excluding is a weapon girls use on each other even when they are friends!

Exclusivity is a girl's weapon of choice Annie

Girls are also naturally more inclusive and socially adept than boys, which is why ASC is under diagnosed in girls.

So it's swings and roundabouts.

I wouldn't invite Rose.
It's your daughter's birthday - would you invite someone to your birthday celebration who hits you?
There is a time for being nice and nurturing and of course teach your child to be kind and give Rose chances to adjust in school but not at the expense of spoiling your own child's party.
Rose is not being ostracized, the party is very small, there will be plenty other opportunities to include Rose in things but not at your dds birthday party if she doesnt want her there.
My text to mum would read "DD is having a small celebration with just a few friends this year, would be ace at to do something with Rose and the rest of the group at another time"
Your job is to be your daughters greatest defender not other children's at her expense.

No, your job is to teach your child to be kind and Inclusive. The child doesn't seem in any way perturbed by Rose's behaviour. It's just that she and her friends have decided that Rose is not nice (in fairness, Rose is hitting apparently etc.). Rose's presence is hardly going to ruin things, unless she really is a terror. But at 4, I would be teaching them ALL about being kind (I'm sure the teacher is blue in the face). There is no-one as close as those whom have a common enemy. Girls seem to figure this out quicker than boys.

All this about 'wee Rose'!!
When you are 4 yourself being hit by another 4 year old is the same as us being hit be a grown adult!

When you are 4 yourself being hit by another 4 year old is the same as us being hit be a grown adult!

Umm... No. Yes, they are peers but it’s not the same at all. Neither is good but a NT adult can be held responsible for their actions in a way that a 4 year old can’t.

Ye I've seen a few four year olds leaving broken ribs and black eyes myself. *sigh. Death was imminent.

IA violent 4 yo is as intimidating to another 4 yo as a violent adult is to us.
Yes I believe a reception age child can and should be held accountable for their actions.They are not babies! A 4 yo knows very well not to hit and scratch!

My dd had a chair thrown at her and another child had a broken eye socket by a year 1 child aged 5

It doesn't always help to constantly downplay this kind of behaviour. I told my dd she didn't deserve to get hurt and didn't have to be friends with the violent child if she didn't want to. I now see my dd is a excluding little cow and I'm the devil incarnate according to this thread. Weird that I don't like my child being twatted with chairs, so weird..

You don't think a 4 yo can inflict serious injuries on another child? Maybe you do not realise this happens because they are not prosecuted