Male postnatal depression

[Foxysoxy01]

Just caught a bit of This Morning with my coffee and they are talking about male postnatal depression.

Now I understand it is a massive change to both parents with a new baby and can quite believe that it could cause stress and worry, even depression for the non birthing partner but why would it have to be postnatal depression which feels more female and is a term used for women who have given birth?

The thing I have an issue with (maybe I'm an unreasonable cynical cow) does it not seem another thing that men have to take away from women?
It feels a little bit like taking away a real horrible issue that women who have given birth sometimes face and making it all about men again and how very hard they have it.

My AIBU is I'm I being a real in empathetic bitch or is this just another case of men having to take over women's experiences and issues? Or is it just a word I'm getting hung up on and technically it is actually correct that they may have postnatal depression?

I don't know why we can't be precise in our definitions without being accused of minimizing.

Men and women sometimes get depressed after the birth of a baby. In women, PND can be triggered by life changes, physical changes and hormonal changes. In men, 'parental depression' (for want of a better term) can be triggered by life changes. They are NOT the same thing. If we pretend they are then treatment is the same and it really shouldn't be.

The PP it sounds like your DH had bi-polar disorder exacerbated by the birth of your child. You wouldn't treat that the same as PND so why say it's the same issue? Not less or more serious, just different.

We need to treat all MH related issues as more serious BTW rather then having men co-opt female disorders to be taken more seriously.

Of course the birth of a child can trigger depression in a new father, especially if he's predisposed to it as many people of both sexes are.
It's a huge issue for the man. He may have seen his partner is pain at a difficult birth. He's suddenly become second in line for the partner's physical and mental attention. He's probably missing sex. If he's a good father he is taking his share of night feeds, nappies etc.

You can call it whatever you like, but the cause of his depression will have been the birth.

Of course men can get post-natal depression. Depression is a chemical imbalance in the body. It can happen after a birth, or at other times, in either gender.

@TerryPratchett

"rather then having men co-opt female disorders"

It isn't a female disorder.

Did you read the links others have posted with descriptions from the NHS as to what PND is?

Your argument isn't about co-opting the disorder but re-defining it to exclude men.

I have read them, and the DSM. I just don't agree. These definitions are rewritten constantly so there's no need to slavishly agree with them every time.

Okay. No offence but I'll stick with the NHS over you (who I assume has no professional qualifications in the field).

Would you agree that your argument isn't about PND currently being co-opted (because it has been applicable to both sexes for a long time*) but that you want it redefined to exclude men?

*I can't see that the definition of PND has ever been changed.

The NHS currently treats postpartum illness often very badly with poorly targeted psychiatric interventions when hormonal interventions would be more effective. This is due to poor understanding of the condition and it being identified as a psychiatric issue. There may be additional factors- there almost always are in any illness - but the underlying causes of PND are due to the hormonal changes.
I write as someone who has suffered two terrifying episodes of postnatal psychosis as well as lifelong PMDD. I now know that I could have avoided many years of ineffective medication and other treatments had I been able to consult medical professionals who had a better understanding of my condition. Happily there are more of them now, just not enough.

And if it isn't different, why bother defining it separately in the first place. Bereavement, trauma, all sorts of things trigger very serious depression. Why bother defining PND if it is identical to depression triggered by any other life change?

And it turns into PN psychosis in some women (not men). So isn't it different in women then?

Again, not saying men can't get very serious, life-threatening depression after children. I just don't think it's the SAME.

x-posted bornto.

I hate all this men vs women crap. We’re all people ffs

sure we are, but only the women actually push the babies out of our vaginas.

Post-natal means the period following childbirth and refers to the person who did the child birthing. Post-natal depression is something only women can get.

This in no way minimises any male being depressed at any time. Saying men get it to though does minimise womens experiences, but that is probably the point isn't it?

Wow some really nasty responses first off!

There really was no need to tell me to fuck off tbh.

I don't for a second think men can't be depressed, stressed, anxious, question the meaning of life after the birth of their child.
What I THINK I have an issue with is the term postnatal depression, but as others have pointed out technically it is a correct term just a part of me feels a little like men are now having to take over then term 'postnatal depression' aswell as most other things that are more applicable to women.

I am thinking more in the way men apparently have sympathetic pregnancies etc they now have postnatal depression too.

I can see my question can be quite inflammatory but honestly I don't have anything but sympathy and support for anyone suffering postnatal depression be them man or woman but wonder if we need to use the same term for both or would it be better to have a different separate term for men? I can't believe that the actual postnatal depression symptoms are the same for both are they? Certainly the physical symptoms can't be?

Anyway I didn't mean to cause upset or start an angry thread I just thought it was interesting to talk about and wondered about my immediate gut reaction, whether it was unreasonable or not.

Do you ever wonder if the reason feminism is dying on its arse is because of people like you?

News to me...

grandioseOtter yes clearly by saying "why can't they just call it depression" means I'm against men getting help

Can you also explain how PND benefits women?!

Men are not "post-natal" themselves though, as PP have said. It seems imprecise to me. Paternal depression seems like a sensible and clear name for it.

Doesn't "post-natal" literally mean post birth? In which case of course men could get post natal depression after the birth of their child.

For me - Using the term "post partum" is more descriptive with reference to a female suffering depression.

I think the terminology is difficult because not all cases of PND are hormonal. Many are but not all. Many are situational: women in abusive relationships or struggling to cope following a break up, mothers of babies born with difficulties or illness, mothers in financial difficulty, mothers with existing mental illness are all at risk of PND. In my own case and that of my dh the primary cause was a baby who screamed upwards of 12 hours a day for several months. We both became unwell as a result of the physical and mental stress we were under and I really can't say that I feel my hormones made me any more in need of help than he was.

I know it's a tricky subject but I think the posters who think this is about men trying to muscle in on women's things are being unfair. Nobody is going to pretend to have PND just to minimise women's suffering. In fact men are more likely to suffer in silence following the birth of their child because they don't feel entitled to be having difficulties. If a man is pretending to have PND to avoid responsibility then that's a totally separate issue. He'd be a dick no matter what excuse he was peddling but it doesn't diminish the real issue some fathers (and adoptive parents) face. Let them seek help without gaslighting them and telling them their illness isn't real.

@FunkyDrunk, women actually attempt suicide at a higher rate than men, they just tend to choose different methods - also some of the methods favoured by women have been removed (changes to gas supply) or access has been reduced (restrictions in paracetamol pack sizes).

Most of the men I've seen "depressed" after birth are emotionally blackmailing their wives into sex earlier than the wife wants to have it. Another charming way I'm sure women will be coerced -- "don't you want to relieve my depression?"

Angels there waere studies linked in feminism section recently that showed women attempt suicide 3 times more than men- but you are spot on on why men die more from it. Men and women also have similar rates pf psychotic disorders diagnosed yet look at the proportion of funding spent and it's mostly on men- men make up higher proportion of more expensive (secure) psych units, recovey programs and long term supported accomedation resources. And despite the obvious stats about women rape/sa/dv victims they recieve less mh funding geared to this (ptsd/cptsd/truama therapy/emdr funding is frighteningly low).

Post partum depression, post partum anxiety disorder, post partum psychosis, premenstrual depressive disorder and premenstrual psychosis are exclusive to female biology. Which is why there is such ambismil funding and research geared to it. Or to how womens bodies respond differently to medications.

Men suffering depression after a big life change like children being born sure, but they don't suffer the physical or hormonal changes women do that increase this risk for us, so different terminology makes better sence.

Mrs- it's also often men writting the definitions entered into the dsm or icd. It takes alot of work from women campaigning to have fairer language used- look how long it took to have the bpd criteria changed to be less degrogatory and less gendered.

I was depressed after my first child was born. It was exhaustion and the situation of having a difficult baby rather than hormonal. I found it difficult to accept I might have PND at the time as I was convinced it was 'just' anxiety and exhaustion.

Maybe there should be a separate definition for PND caused by physical and hormonal changes but I do have know how the cause can be determined for sure.

It was exhaustion and the situation of having a difficult baby rather than hormonal

How would you know how much the chemical and hormonal changes affected you? You wouldn't and couldn't.

Because I was in an utterly shit situation with a refluxy, non sleeping, screaming baby who lost 10% of her body weight, took months to regain it with fuck all support. Plus I probably have ASD (screaming baby diagnosed aged 8) and definitely have anxiety. I'm convinced hormones played little, if any part in it.

And? That doesn't mean anything at all. you have no way of knowing. None.

@grandioseOtter

I've just read your longer post where you describe your husband's illness. I'm very sorry to hear that he went through that.

However it's quite clear that your posts on this thread have been informed by your personal experience and not from the fact that you claim to have medical knowledge.

Banging on about clinical data (while supplying none) and then wheeling out a personal anecdote when pressed isn't what I would expect from a medical professional.

As I said in my first post on this thread, of course men can be depressed in the aftermath of their child's birth. I still think that calling it "post-natal depression" detracts from the experience of women. It's something that is necessarily bound up with having gone through pregnancy and childbirth. If there isn't a seperate term for that, then there should be. That's my opinion.

Having that opinion doesn't make me "stupid and ignorant", or in need of "a little education". There's an issue up for discussion. You can't just shout down anyone who doesn't agree with you or bow to your knowledge/ experience. It's silly.