Male postnatal depression

[Foxysoxy01]

Just caught a bit of This Morning with my coffee and they are talking about male postnatal depression.

Now I understand it is a massive change to both parents with a new baby and can quite believe that it could cause stress and worry, even depression for the non birthing partner but why would it have to be postnatal depression which feels more female and is a term used for women who have given birth?

The thing I have an issue with (maybe I'm an unreasonable cynical cow) does it not seem another thing that men have to take away from women?
It feels a little bit like taking away a real horrible issue that women who have given birth sometimes face and making it all about men again and how very hard they have it.

My AIBU is I'm I being a real in empathetic bitch or is this just another case of men having to take over women's experiences and issues? Or is it just a word I'm getting hung up on and technically it is actually correct that they may have postnatal depression?

[donquixotedelamancha]

"I am not minimising depression or stigmatising mh issues. I am diagnosed with mh issues myself"

You framed it around 'another thing that men have to take away from women?' That minimises MH issues as if they are a choice, generalises about men and attracted some fools who just want to slag men off. Read those quotes I posted again.

"Why do you feel so strongly that you can't be 'just' depressed you have to have postnatal depression?"

I said nothing of the sort. In fact I said the exact opposite. Read my post.

I am not saying you personally are responsible for all the bile, I'm saying the quotes I posted and the stuff at the lass who's a doctor is pretty unpleasant and unhelpful. If it were my thread, I'd have taken it down.

In fairness, since I posted that the discussion has crystalised a bit and the poison spitters have gone home or 'wound their neck in'.

I've reread my argument- I stand by it. I think it's fine to discuss this issue, but in a way that shows understanding of medical practice and doesn't make sweeping generalisations.

[Rufustherenegadereindeer1]

The 'doctor' was being unpleasant and unhelpful

[Foxysoxy01]

I don't know how to explain myself any clearer than I have tbh.

My issue is with calling the depression some men feel after the birth of their children as postnatal depression.

I have no other motive than feeling slightly strange about men using a term that has 'belonged' to women.
I don't understand why men cannot have another term.

I don't feel any need to delete my thread because there are posts you think are wrong.

I started this thread because I didn't know how I felt about the issue, tbh I still don't and it has been very helpful and interesting to hear different views.

[minifingerz]

Most PND is not cause by hormonal changes - women can get it whether they are birth mothers, adopters or surrogates, and it's not generally treated with hormones.

Of course pregnancy and the experience of childbirth can precipitate PND but we don't tell women who have been fine in pregnancy and not had a bad birth experience but who get PND afterwards because of intense loneliness as new mums, that they haven't got PND because their emotional dysregulation isn't directly linked with being pregnant/giving birth but is the result of struggling with their social situation afterwards.

Of course men can get PND which comes in all shapes and sizes and is caused by a wide range of factors surrounding early parenthood and birth. And I know men traumatised by their partner's births :-(

[FuckShitJackFairy]

Op doesn't frame mh problems as a choice men take away from women, she frames the term pnd as being taken away, which also takes away the recognition of the huge impact hormonal & physical changes have on mh as well as birth truama ontop of adjusting to a huge life change.

[donquixotedelamancha]

@Rufustherenegadereindeer1

"The majority of us havent belittled MH issues, most seem to be saying that men getting depressed after the baby is born is very true"

I certainly agree you didn't post any of the rubbish I quoted. IMHO stuff like that is poisoning MN (not especially about men- on every topic). I still think that the sum total of the thread to that point had been highly derogatory of men's MH issues.

I do worry that making this an issue about 'Men' (as some uniform class) getting something from Women (again, as if they are all the same), as you are arguing belittles MH. Provision for depression is shit for all- it's not a competition.

I think if you want to argue the definition of PND should be changed to specifically apply to women's experience it would be stronger by acknowledging the medical position, not pretending it doesn't exist, as many initial posters did.

If the medical profession felt that the effect of hormones and birth was sufficiently distinct to give a separate class of illness I would have no issue with that. I would not personally refer to my depression as PND, though I suspect others might.

[HouseholdWords]

YANBU

I suspect it's in those rather self-centred men who are in "pain" because they aren't the centre of attention any more. Next generation is here, so move over!

[MrsDustyBusty]

I think there's a sense in which it's a bit like some men claiming that "we" are pregnant. Often this is just taken as a turn of phrase, but it's an odd one which elides the reality of who bears the work and risk in pregnancy and childbirth.

As a general point, I find it quite political to deny the reality of pregnancy and childbirth and their impact on women. I think we possibly need a new phrase to describe what most of us think of as postnatal depression if that's an accurate description of what some men suffer after becoming fathers, because there is a particular impact on women that mustn't be ignored and can't be felt by men.

[TakingtheLeap]

I think the specificity of terms is quite important. So, perhaps, 'parental depression' (paternal is a bit heteronormative - not all bin-birthing parents are men! - and as a PP said excludes adoptive parents). But I think post-natal, in referring to the mental repercussions of physically carrying and birthing a child, has value. It may obviously be associated with issues such as stress, tiredness, life change, but the term (I feel) alludes to the fact that the illness may be associated with birth trauma and hormonal changes, and that pharmaceutical treatment or counseling (and research towards the same!) should give prominence to that.

I have had many episodes of 'ordinary' depression and am terrified of suffering from PND: I have been stressed, busy, and tired in my life, but I haven't yet also been those things whilst also recovering from massive physical changes and hormonal fluctuations. I expect the experience of PND, if I have it, to be quite different from my normal depression.

I don't thing emphasising the distinctiveness of different experiences is the same as attempting to diminish one or raise another up. I just think it is really important to be able to speak precisely about something as complex as depression and it's multiple causes and forms.

[Rufustherenegadereindeer1]

don

I appreciate your comments, cant argue with much of it to be fair...although i dont think the majority should be blamed for the posts of a minority

What do you think of blacks earlier post?

[Rufustherenegadereindeer1]

don

And while i think of it

You are exactly who foxy is not referring to...

You had depression following the baby but appreciate (i think) that it might not take the same form as a woman

[Rufustherenegadereindeer1]

And what dusty said

[Rufustherenegadereindeer1]

And what taking said

I really shouldnt post til ive read

[LipstickHandbagCoffee]

Postpartum parental depression can affect either gender, predominantly female but males affected are in minority. Its likely to be caused by chemical & social and pre-existing individual factors. On the positive it’s a treatable illness and the prognosis with medication and support is overall good

[HouseholdWords]

As a general point, I find it quite political to deny the reality of pregnancy and childbirth and their impact on women

Excellent point and very relevant in this case.

I suspect that, in general terms, the reasons for the difficulties men may have on adjusting to children might be very different from those women experience.

[donquixotedelamancha]

"I don't know how to explain myself any clearer than I have tbh."

You don't need to. I (and I imagine everyone else) understood it quite well.

"I have no other motive than feeling slightly strange about men using a term that has 'belonged' to women."

That's a more nuanced way of putting it that might have prompted a better quality discussion. I don't particularly disagree with you- I just think it should be down to medical professionals, not belonging to some specific group.

"I don't feel any need to delete my thread because there are posts you think are wrong."

Fair enough, absolutely your right. I don't feel the need to wind my neck in :-) Do you honestly not see why what you posted could be offensive and the following discussion really was? (Not that I am implying any right not to be offended- that way lies madness)

P.S. One more 'MH issues aren't real' style quote:
"I suspect it's in those rather self-centred men who are in "pain" because they aren't the centre of attention any more."

While we are giving offence- I wish they'd fuck off.

[Bombardier25966]

I suspect it's in those rather self-centred men who are in "pain" because they aren't the centre of attention any more. Next generation is here, so move over!

I know of a man who committed suicide whilst experiencing postnatal depression. He adored his family, but his mental illness led him to believe they were better off without him. Attention seeking was the last thing on his mind.

You're bloody ignorant.

[LipstickHandbagCoffee]

The reasons for Postpartum parental depression are multifactorial (chemical and social) and it’s not helpful to Infer that the male experience is less legitimate. Parents experiencing depression need help not judgement. For both genders the stigma,shame and misunderstanding around depression impact upon people seeking help in a timely manner.

[donquixotedelamancha]

"I appreciate your comments, cant argue with much of it to be fair...although i dont think the majority should be blamed for the posts of a minority What do you think of blacks earlier post?"

Not blaming the majority- that's why I quoted. Was suggesting the overall tone of the thread was bad, pleased it's taking a rational turn.

No issue at all with Black's PoV. I don't quite agree- as stated before I think it's primarily a medical decision, but the last thing I would want to do would be to start strongly declaiming on women's experience of childbirth, any more than I want dickheads saying depression is just a trick to get a blowjob.

[CherryChasingDotMuncher]

Why would it make it anything less by not calling it postnatal depression? Why do you have to use a term that has been applied towards women for years? Why can you not come up with your own term?

Quite.

The ‘postnatal’ label allows some background of a woman, that she has been through a difficult time physically and emotionally having given birth, and will also need specific support in that she is caring for a baby (the vast majority of parents being the main caters for babies is women). It needs to be protected to be specifically for women.

[PumpkinSquash]

Those quoted above and the ones slagging off anyone who quotes the NHS website as an MRA should be ashamed. You are part of the reason for MH stigma in this country.


Agreed. FFS, it's not a competition. Why quibble over names?! Everyone can get depression after childbirth and the quotes mentioned are awful.
Better for everyone to get help if they need it and not have to put up with shitty attitudes like that to make them feel worse.

[CherryChasingDotMuncher]

No one did anything following my miscarriage

What focus do women usually get?

MN canvassed posters a while ago to share their be experiences of how they were treated by HCPs following a miscarriage. The stories were heartbreaking. When I had mine, the junior doctor said “could you have an STD? That can cause miscarriage.” When I explained I was married and had had STD tests not long after meeting DH, she said “That doesn’t really mean anything, he could have played away since then”. Thanks for that.

We should be worrying about getting it right for women before we worry about men, when it comes to miscarriage. Sorry not sorry

[Rufustherenegadereindeer1]

cherry

I was laughed at

[CherryChasingDotMuncher]

Rufus That’s awful

[PumpkinSquash]

I suspect it's in those rather self-centred men who are in "pain" because they aren't the centre of attention any more. Next generation is here, so move over!

Jeez, I hope you're on the wind up as that's a vile attitude to have.
Men and women can both have depression, it's not a case of attention seeking.
I bet you wouldn't say a woman was self centred or attention seeking.
Let's just hope you''re a troll.