Male postnatal depression

[Foxysoxy01]

Just caught a bit of This Morning with my coffee and they are talking about male postnatal depression.

Now I understand it is a massive change to both parents with a new baby and can quite believe that it could cause stress and worry, even depression for the non birthing partner but why would it have to be postnatal depression which feels more female and is a term used for women who have given birth?

The thing I have an issue with (maybe I'm an unreasonable cynical cow) does it not seem another thing that men have to take away from women?
It feels a little bit like taking away a real horrible issue that women who have given birth sometimes face and making it all about men again and how very hard they have it.

My AIBU is I'm I being a real in empathetic bitch or is this just another case of men having to take over women's experiences and issues? Or is it just a word I'm getting hung up on and technically it is actually correct that they may have postnatal depression?

there are some really ugly comments on this post!

Names matter a great deal. Words have meaning, whether dictionary definitions, dsm/icd criteria or socially used meaning they are how we communicate our experience, how we voice our feeling and how we access help and understanding. Taking away the meaning of womens' language is a huge current problem and this seems another form of it. Add to that- male/female are sex not gender. It's our experience of female biology, female reproductive function that leaves us at risk of female specific mh problems, although no doubt sex role stereotypes make that a fuck of alot worse (than without a hyrarchy of gender). Males experience of depression following the birth of their child is not dependant on their experience of male reproductive function. So it's a different, but not lesser, condition.

@Foxysoxy01

"I have no other motive than feeling slightly strange about men using a term that has 'belonged' to women."

There are two issues I take with this. Firstly, you knew it was goady and likely to end in a bunfight.

Unfortunately for you, rather than a nice "men-are-bad" type response, there are some downright nasty and horrible people posting. A particularly nasty one shows how many women view men (yet they wonder why there's misogyny in the World) is

"I suspect it's in those rather self-centred men who are in "pain" because they aren't the centre of attention any more."

Secondly, when has this term ever belonged to women?

Everything I can find online talks about it affecting X% of women and Y% of men. You may want to change its meaning so that it excludes men but this isn't something men are muscling in on. It's you excluding men from a sexless term.

Thank you for being a feminist. Fighting for equality and benefitting both genders.

@FuckShitJackFairy

Strange user name.

'heirarchy'

HTH

FuckShit great name. Good post.

Ichthyosaur

No I didn't know it would end in a 'bit fight'
I did think grown women and men were capable of having a reasonable discussion. I wasn't goady in my OP.

It's sad you think we cannot as a society talk about issues like this for fear of causing bun fights as you put it.
It's not a healthy way to behave, we shouldn't have to put up, shut up and not dare question how we feel about things. I think terms should be clearer I think there should be specific terms for men and women. Not all terms relating to women are interchangeable and nor should they be.
Talking about issues like this actually bring mh issues, especially men's mh issues post birth, into focus more rather than having it hidden away. I THINK I just don't like making postnatal depression an interchangeable term.

I don't think you understand why I started this thread at all!
I don't find it unfortunate that people have given me different views to think about. I don't understand why you think I would be upset for getting varied views when that was what I asked for.

I suppose I am excluding men from the term, but that is not the same as saying they cannot be suffering depression or any other mh issues after the birth of their child.
I'm not sure I feel like it's a bad thing excluding men from the term tbh.

You have done nothing wrong by starting the thread OP and only a minority of posters have been offensive or goady, most replies have been food for thought and well articulated

To add to my previous point, I suppose my reason for believing that PND is wholly a woman's experience is that if PND did not have a clear link with women's reproductive system then why does it have its own very well recognised name?

We all know that any stressful experience (bereavement, divorce, job loss etc etc) can trigger an episode of depression. If PND was exactly like any other type of reactive depression then why would it have its own name and be recognised as distinct from other types of depression by psychiatrists for many years??

As per my previous post, this doesn't mean that depression experienced by fathers or other parents who haven't actually given birth is lesser than PND in any way but I don't think it is helpful to refer to it as PND

We all know that any stressful experience (bereavement, divorce, job loss etc etc) can trigger an episode of depression. If PND was exactly like any other type of reactive depression then why would it have its own name and be recognised as distinct from other types of depression by psychiatrists for many years??

As per my previous post, this doesn't mean that depression experienced by fathers or other parents who haven't actually given birth is lesser than PND in any way but I don't think it is helpful to refer to it as PND

This. Postpartum/postnatal depression is specific to the birthing mother. What non-birthing parents experience is best described as situational depression/adjustment disorder, or plain depression, aka major depressive disorder.

@Foxysoxy01

I understand why you say you started the thread but I don't believe you. I may in real life if I got to know you but when online, I'm a very cynical person. It seems that many others are too. That Dr had a very sad tale. It was easy to see why she was a little het up on the subject and yet wasn't given an inch of slack let alone listened to. I guess, being cynical, I think you were waiting for 99% of posters to chime in with 'men take everything from us' with a single poster suggesting otherwise and being passively-aggressively referred to as s/he. That's close to what happened and it was predictable considering the forum, the subforum and the demographic that leaps on to these threads.

I think society can and should talk about things like this. They did on This Morning. Obviously not from the angle you want to approach it.

However, society and AIBU are very different places.

People who may be irritating arses in person turn into absolute cunts when given anonymity. For better or worse, people change online.

"I THINK I just don't like making postnatal depression an interchangeable term."

It isn't being made interchangeable. It always has been interchangeable. Men aren't taking anything. It's women like you who want to take something from men.

Maybe you weren't being deliberately goady. Sorry if you weren't.

2nd post coming in a second.

Icthyosaur

I don't know anyone IRL who would refer to a man struggling with depression after becoming a parent as having PND

No mention of men here
www.rcpsych.ac.uk/healthadvice/problemsdisorders/postnataldepression.aspx?theme=mobile

2nd post.

I want to quote some replies which may get deleted and therefore mine will too. I spent a few minutes typing the first reply to you so want it to stay.

//---------------------

What do you think about these especially nasty replies?

Think they're disgusting / awful / absurd etc?
Refuse to condemn in a Trump-esque way?
Condone?
Agree with?

Esp. 1, 2, 4, 5, 8, 10. If you're not goady and posting genuinely. I'd really like to read your opinions on them.

1. Do men have to take fucking everything?

2. They could be depressed after the birth of their child, it's not the same thing. This is just another way to minimise women's experiences.

[factually wrong and creating them and us situations]

3. It is men experiencing something at a vaguely-similar time to women, and appropriating the women's medical term

[it isn't a women's medical term. Writing nonsense to create a divide and that's before the subtle minimising of male MH issues]

4. I suspect this will now be the "cause" of every man who suddenly becomes totally useless once a baby arrives, totally unable to do night feeds or comfort a crying newborn.

5. "Man depression" is like "man flu."

6. are you an MRA?

[the most trite of all put downs on AIBU]

7. PND should remain a term for women.

[It isn't one]

8. [men] don't need to be given a gift wrapped medically approved reason for why they are now treating their partner like shit.

[Yes. That's the reason for depression - an excuse]

9. Saying men get [PND] to [sic] though does minimise womens experiences, but that is probably the point isn't it?

[I know the poster's a perpetual dickhead on this thread but she seems vaguely on point with a few others' opinions. I bet she believes in the patriarchy]

10. Most of the men I've seen "depressed" after birth are emotionally blackmailing their wives into sex earlier than the wife wants to have it. Another charming way I'm sure women will be coerced -- "don't you want to relieve my depression?"

[I hope she gets the MH help she appears to be in dire need of]

11. "so can we quit it with the poor menz crap please?"

www.healthguideinfo.com/postpartum-depression/p99788/
The link leads to a brief history of PPD/PND. Of particular relevance is:
In 700 BC Hippocrates wrote about women suffering from emotional difficulties during their postpartum period, but it was not until the 1850s that medical professionals first recognized postpartum depression as a disorder.

Most literature on the topic phrases PPD/PND as something that occurs within a certain timeframe after giving birth - not after becoming a parent.
For example, this study;

Postpartum depression (PPD) is an irritable, severely depressed mood that occurs within 4 weeks of giving birth and possibly as late as 30 weeks postpartum.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC181045/

And this government literature;
There are three types of childbirth-related depression that are talked about:
Postnatal or maternity blues are very common. A new mother feels down and tearful in the week after her baby is born. This feeling passes after a few days.
Postnatal depression, a more serious condition, is also common. The mother becomes seriously depressed in the first months following the baby's birth. It can occur any time during the baby’s first year.
Postnatal psychosis (sometimes called post partum psychosis) is rare and involves symptoms of psychosis (being out of touch with reality) as well as changes in mood – either a depressed or an extremely high mood. It usually begins in the first two weeks after the child is born.
www.mentalhealth.org.nz/get-help/a-z/resource/26/postnatal-depression

No mention of men anywhere in any of the above

I think PND is an rubbish concept and diagnosis in general.

The majority of women suffering depression after childbirth are not suffering because of hormonal changes or physical changes. So the PND umbrella is minimising/ignoring the real sources of their mental illness in a way that often prevents them getting timely treatment.

A lot of women are actually suffering post traumatic depression from the psychological damage caused by poorly managed birth and immediate postnatal experiences. This requires totally different treatment from hormonal induced PND.

Men can also experience depression due to psychological trauma from the childbirth process though it is obviously rarer.

Many women are suffering depression due to life change, role loss, role gain and the total upheaval of having a newborn.

Men can suffer depression due to this aspect of becoming a parent just as easily as women.

So personally I'd like to see PND reserved for the hormonal stuff (which isn't actually that prevalent), PTD used in the case of childbirth trauma induced depression and straight up 'depression' used in the case of people pushed into depression by the experience of becoming a parent.

All are important and all need treating.

That Dr had a very sad tale. It was easy to see why she was a little het up on the subject and yet wasn't given an inch of slack

Hmm. Don't you realise that many women on this thread will have "very sad tales" of their own, but don't feel the need to invoke their personal experiences in order to have a general discussion?

Very odd posts.

Also, ichthy, there's nothing deletion-worthy in any of those posts you've put in your little list.

I really don't think you're in a position to accuse others of nastiness.

That Dr had a very sad tale. It was easy to see why she was a little het up on the subject and yet wasn't given an inch of slack

That dr was unpleasant from the get go

She also didn't mention her story until after a number of comments by other posters and as far as i can see didnt appear again

So your retelling is round the wrong way

@Ichthyosaur last two posts.... says everything that went through my head reading the first third of this thread.

I honestly cannot get my head around why some MNers are so anti-men? They’re not some sick twisted vile species purely put on this earth to defile and demean and annoy the living shit out of women (or at least, I don’t think they are )

I’m glad though that after the first third of this thread sensibleness prevailed and there are some very grown up, well reasoned logical POVs put across on both sides of the debate - my faith in MN has been restored

(and I believe I’ve also been educated! So well done and thank you OP for raising the question; I personally didn’t read your post as goady but I can see how it could have been interpreted that way even if you didn’t intend it to)

Many might, that's true.

Perhaps she wasn't thinking clearly. It seemed very close to home and raw for her.

I think that unless we invoke personal experiences, this thread would have been pointless with the NHS description and the NZ description at odds with each other.

Well done for showing her though. You won!

x-post MayFarner

You genuinely don't take issue with "Most of the men I've seen "depressed" after birth are emotionally blackmailing their wives into sex earlier than the wife wants to have it." or ""Man depression" is like "man flu." "?

You think that most men use depression to rape their wives or that they maximise their depression and we can liken it to the misandrist term 'man flu'?

Really? Honestly? You think that's okay? If you do, would you jump to a woman's defense who was accused of overblowing her PND as an excuse to get out of nappies and housework?

You won!

I'm not sure if you're addressing me or rufus but even the fact that you think of it in terms of "winning" gives huge insight into your mindset.

I don't agree with the sex-pest and "man-flu" comments, no. I said from the outset that I believe men can be depressed in the period after their child is born. I never suggested they were faking it for sympathy.

However if other posters have those opinions they have a right to voice them.

I was addressing you.

I used the term 'won' as you were fairly rude and unsympathetic to a woman who clearly felt very emotional about the topic at hand. Something we've all done in the past, surely?

You say that there's nothing wrong or "deletion worthy" but MN is hot on disablism. Suggesting most men pretend to have MH issues to rape their wives or that they overblow depression is surely disablist? No?

Again, would you jump to a woman's defense who was accused of overblowing her PND as an excuse to get out of nappies and housework or would you stand by and defend free speech? I've worked a lot in the States in the last 6 months. Lots of very nasty people use free speech to say very nasty things.

Many women are suffering depression due to life change, role loss, role gain and the total upheaval of having a newborn.

Definitely this. I think if you ameliorated the environment around new mothers you’d find a decrease in PND.

As for men, I’m sure they can have it too but I understand why women find it annoying. It’s one of the few times in their lives that they’re doing something that society approves of and sees them as born to do. But it’s an enormous change and at the same time as gaining status in that sense as a mother, they’re losing status in the outside world that they’ve been working so hard in.

Men probably feel stress related to being the sole breadwinner but at least they get to keep their lives.

Their lives in the working world I mean!

I honestly cannot get my head around why some MNers are so anti-men

It isn't anti men to object to men trying to take from women. We aren't even allowed our own biology anymore, we are supposed to say pregnant persons instead of women and pretend that men get postnatal depression. It's offensive and insulting.

ichthy that poster was rude, condescending and passively and actively aggressive to several posters before they brought up their personal situation.

I'm not willing to be drawn on the rest of your post, it's a bit of a stretch imo. As per my previous, I don't personally agree with those attitudes, so defending them doesn't concern me.