what the jeff is going on in Catalunia?

[ludothedog]

whether the vote is legitimate or not, for goodness sake, is deploying riot police to remove voters/protesters the right way? Terrible, Just terrible.

Can you imagine what would have happened if riot police were deployed to stop the Scottish independence referendum?

Surely by denying the Catalan people the vote all they will do is galvanise support for independence?

Maybe I am missing the point entirely but why didn't the Spanish government let the vote go ahead and when the result was announced just say thats fine but the Constitution states that Spain must be unified. Completely simplistic I know but it would surely have caused less damage to the country. Attacking Spanish citizens couldn't be the answer of anyone sane.

I don't think you are missing the point.....you've hit the nail on the head there Emerald.

Literally a dozen things they could have done, including as you say, probably the easiest option, just letting it go ahead then not doing anything about it.

There are only 2 reasons I can think of for the reaction from Madrid.

1. They are trying to shut all debate down, now, by scaring people with police violence. "Do as we say or you will be beaten"

Or

2. They did it on purpose knowing full well it would stir up more trouble.

In this day and age, I can't believe that the Government would think outright violence would subdue an independence movement.
It always without fail, only succeeds on creating angrier, and more desperate protests.

So my conclusion is that either the Spanish Government are really, very, very fucking thick and didn't realise the consequences

Or much more likely they are trying to stir up dissent so they can crack down harder.

Fucking fuckers.

It is odd how they reacted when they could of ignored it. Particularly in the era of social media when the violence will be widely publicised.

Jesus I've just been watching the footage. It's horrible, Spain have really messed up.

LOL Lana I will go for 'really very very fucking thick'. It's the only thing that makes sense. The only other reason is 'let's fuck up our entire country on 1st of October 2017.

In this day and age, I can't believe that the Government would think outright violence would subdue an independence movement

It's worked in the past all over the world .

"So my conclusion is that either the Spanish Government are really, very, very fucking thick and didn't realise the consequences hmm

"Or much more likely they are trying to stir up dissent so they can crack down harder."

Well, quite. My (depressing) prediction is Puigdemont declares independence on Tuesday, Rojay puts troops on the streets on Wednesday.

So my conclusion is that either the Spanish Government are really, very, very fucking thick and didn't realise the consequences

Or much more likely they are trying to stir up dissent so they can crack down harder.

Well, the Spanish government got away with it.

It seems that there is no way for the Catalan to achieve their ends. They have no big friends (like America supporting Kosovo) and EU countries are looking the other way.

I find it strange that people are not remembering that British troops opened fire on peaceful civil rights march in NI in 1969 setting off years of serious trouble. Young people who see that are all fired up to join up as get so angry.
And when lreland announced their own Republic in 1916 he leaders were all taken out and shot by the British.
I dont know why people are surprised at the extreme reaction.
Its totally wrong of course just as it was in all the other situations.

Well I'll go ahead and say that I don't remember 1969 as I wasn't yet born and it want taught at school so I frankly didn't know.

I am old enough to remember the troubles in Ireland and the death of Franco and the start of modern Spanish democracy (the parallels with the British in Ireland have been discussed at length upthread, June - it is a very pertinent comparison to make).

Elvira's point, "It seems that there is no way for the Catalan to achieve their ends. They have no big friends (like America supporting Kosovo) and EU countries are looking the other way." is an interesting one. I'm now reconsidering my bleak projection of a few posts back. I think Puigdemont knows he has too few friends on the international stage and is looking for a compromise deal. There's an article on him just appeared on the BBC which (if I'm reading between the lines correctly) suggests he knows that he won't get full independence out of this, but might be able to leverage Rajoy's insane over-reaction into greater autonomy for Catalonia (the Basque region, for instance, already has greater autonomous powers than Catalonia, so there is a precedent).

It seems that there is no way for the Catalan to achieve their ends. They have no big friends (like America supporting Kosovo) and EU countries are looking the other way

What are the ends the Catalan people are seeking to achieve? As far as I can make out from the BBC website it was the right to hold a referendum, which had every likelihood of not voting for independence. A poll in July had it at 41% for 49% against.

I don't understand why Madrid didn't let this go ahead and then just ignore the result.

If I were in Catalonia and in that 49% I would be mightily hacked off with the governments of both Catalonia and Spain. If the Holyrood government behaved in the way Catalan government had I would expect Westminster to do everything legally possible to stop it- which would include warning that individual members of the government would be personally liable for the cost of the illegal referendum.

Emerald (and others)

The Spanish government have, as far as I know, already let the Catalans go ahead with one referendum, in 2014. On that occasion they seem to have done exactly what you suggested.

The result was pro independence, because (as now) the anti independence public largely boycotted the poll.

The Spanish government may have thought that if they allowed this second illegal) poll to go ahead, illegal UDI would have been next.

Not that I'm trying to justify police brutality in any way, merely speculating on the Spanish government's motives.

Esspee

I am Scottish and had a similar situation happened during our referendum (Westminster trying to prevent us voting) then I am sure the result would have been very different. Spain seems to have scored an own goal.

I know this is off-topic, but you've got this one seriously wrong. The Scottish government almost certainly doesn't have the legal right to hold a referendum. The only reason why I say "almost" is because there's no court case confirming so.

There was a lot of debate within Scotland about whether a referendum should be held, but once the Scottish government notified the Westminster of its wish to do so, Westminster passed legislation empowering the Scottish government to do so, thus avoiding the need for a court case (unlike Spain).

The UK did precisely nothing to prevent a vote on Scottish independence, and views like the one you've expressed are worthy of Nigel Farage in their inaccuracy.

Toadinthehole, youve read Esspee's post wrong. Start the sentence with ....."Had a similar situation happened......etc" (and had westminster tried to prevent voting) etc. The result would have been different.

Meaning, any sort of oppression, like that that weve seen this week, would have swung voters to then vote supporting Indy, rather than as originally intended.

As has happened in Catalonia, many have changed their minds following Spains heavy handed response.

Esspee certainly wasnt saying westminster oppressed the Scots during Indy Ref.

I don't know what point Espee was trying to make other than not understanding the constitution of either country.

If I were in Barcelona I would be furious with both governments.

According to the BBC the Catalan regional government has stated it will be declaring independence from Spain within the next few days.

Was anyone else surprised by the King's speech?

I thought there would at least be an attempt at pulling everyone together. Instead it was just a telling off.

Funnily enough no mention of the behaviour of the national police, or the use of rubber bullets which are illegal in Spain.

Totally agree lala. Awful, disappointing irresponsible speech. Talk about fanning the flames!

To be fair he is not exactly the darling of separatists (who are republican - think Gerry Adams and the Queen ) so this speech was never going to stop this mess... but he could have made an effort to reach out to everyone. He has sided entirely with the party in power which is not a great idea for any monarch IMO.

He's never going to be their bestie, no, but he could have made a bit of effort.

I think the authorities in Madrid are going to completely ignore the police behaviour after their "proportional" statement.

Which is a disgrace really. No matter what the Catalan people were doing peacefully that shouldn't have happened.

I have a friend in Spain who is very strongly pro-Spain despite being Catalan himself and he's livid at the police behaviour and thinks that their reaction is just going to make the independence desire stronger still. He was hoping the King would at least acknowledge the feeling of the people, but nope, he just chucked a big hand grenade in!

If I was Spanish Government, I'd look to amend the constitution to allow regions to separate, but only with something like a 2/3 majority on a 75%+ turnout. The argument would be for something this significant, a majority of eligible voters need to vote in favour, not just a majority of actual voters (75% x 66.7% = 50%). This would be both difficult to argue against from a fairness perspective, and difficult for a region to achieve... If this had been the bar in Catalonia, the vote wouldn't have succeeded by a wide margin, and it would have been difficult for those supporting independence to claim moral high ground if fewer than half of eligible voters supported them.

Right you are Caroline

Re the king's speech: I think threatening to make a unilateral declaration of independence is at least ten times more irresponsible. The manner in which the Spanish police behaved is disgraceful, but surely the Catalan leadership has its own responsibility to avoid unrest on the streets by ensuring that Catalan independence is achieved democratically and legally.

coconuttella

I admit that all I know about the Spanish constitution is from Wikipedia (and the article seems to have changed a bit in the last few days!) but it sounds as if it can be amended by a two thirds majority vote in each house of the Spanish parliament followed by a majority vote in an all-Spain referendum.

So surely what needs to happen is that a) the Spanish constitution is amended (using the procedure described above) to allow Catalonia to secede if it wants to and b) Catalonia holds a vote on its own independence.

What I'd like to know is whether the Catalan authorities have ever suggested this.

Tbh, as that very constitution was overwhelmingly approved in Catalonia in 1978 they can't really complain if the rest of Spain insists on having a say on the question of Catalonia's independence.

but surely the Catalan leadership has its own responsibility to avoid unrest on the streets by ensuring that Catalan independence is achieved democratically and legally.

But if the law prevents democracy from being exercised, I'm not sure what other choice the Catalan Government have other than to just give up.

I agree Toad

The Catalan government is claiming a moral high ground on the basis of 90% of a 42% turn out- nowhere near a majority. And there will almost certainly be multiple voting.

I'm vehemently opposed to Scottish separatism. Had Holyrood behaved in such an illegal and manipulative manner I'm not certain a violent response would make me change my mind. I certainly would be wary of trusting separatists who themselves have no regard for the law.

The police should be called to account but so should the Catalan government.

Tbh, as that very constitution was overwhelmingly approved in Catalonia in 1978 they can't really complain if the rest of Spain insists on having a say on the question of Catalonia's independence.

I don't think it's reasonable for one region to be forced against its wishes to be kept as part of a country, on the basis that the rest of that country doesn't support it.

Would Ireland ever have been granted independence on that basis? Would Scots have been ok with the English, Welsh and NIrish having a vote in their indyref?