what the jeff is going on in Catalunia?

[ludothedog]

whether the vote is legitimate or not, for goodness sake, is deploying riot police to remove voters/protesters the right way? Terrible, Just terrible.

Can you imagine what would have happened if riot police were deployed to stop the Scottish independence referendum?

Surely by denying the Catalan people the vote all they will do is galvanise support for independence?

Well after that speech it looks like Rajoy has 100% lost it, that man is deluded.

haven't seen his speech. what was said?

"The referendum has not been celebrated"

“no referendum has been held in Catalonia today”

"The referendum didn't exist. We have been an example to the world."

is pretty much a tl:dw

First vote count in and it is a win for independence, this is where it potentially can get nasty now after today's antics.

oh shit.

Rajoy also thanked the police for doing their job dearie me. No "violence is regrettable blah blah blah".

I read that the Spanish ambassador to the UK said that the Spanish written constitution made holding a referendum impossible, legally speaking, because it required Spanish unity. If so, the Spanish government would be in a massive bind.
I believe the Spanish constitution recognises a nation's right to self-determination. But it doesn't consider Catalonia a nation. Some rock-solid reasoning there

I can't believe that they are claiming that the police acted properly. The videos are absolutely shocking - one of them has the police attacking firemen! I'm actually finding this quite scary to watch, it's so controlling and all this denial when everyone can see what's going on.

@topicoftheday Actually, you may want to check your figures (or get them from a reputable source). It's been shown for many years that London is the most heavily subsidised area of the UK. Also, because most whisky is exported, the tax is shown as being at the point of exit, England, rather than the point of production, Scotland, so even our profitability is skewed.

In Madrid right now visiting and was horrified to see Franco's tomb had flowers on it and that he is buried in the same place as all those who died ftheir civil war.

.....fighting in their Civil War. He tried to break the Catalan culture and language! No wonder they want Insependence

Could any Spanish posters shed any light on why Rajoy's government chose to act the way they did? Surely, the sane thing to do would have been to say repeatedly beforehand "this has been ruled unconstitutional, so it's a "fake" vote with no legitimacy, so of course the no voters will stay home, so the results will be meaningless..." and rinse and repeat. Why send in the police and inflame things by having the state stand behind appalling violence? It's just a total own goal on the part of the government.

I don’t blame any Catalonians for changing their mind today and voting for independence. As soon as the riot police started I’d be saying ‘any government sending in that sort of force, is not a government that I’d support’. And I’m someone who is very very wary of countries splintering like this.

Also, because most whisky is exported, the tax is shown as being at the point of exit, England, rather than the point of production, Scotland

This has repeatedly been shown as an SNP lie export values are defined by their point of production.

From the Scottish Governments own website
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Economy/Exports/ESSFAQ#_Are_Scottish_goodswww.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Economy/Exports/ESSFAQ#_Are_Scottish_goods" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Economy/Exports/ESSFAQ#_Are_Scottish_goodswww.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Economy/Exports/ESSFAQ#_Are_Scottish_goods

Are Scottish goods which are exported via ports from the rest of the UK counted as international Scottish exports?

Yes. The ESS publication measures the destination of goods exported from Scotland regardless of the port from which they leave the UK.

I just hope that the Spanish gov't, doesn't decide to send the military into Catalonia, to "keep order".

This has repeatedly been shown as an SNP lie export values are defined by their point of production

I find it very distasteful that this thread is beinf derailed by both Scottish unionists and nationalists. May I respectfully suggest that if you want to discuss the relative merits of Scottish independence you do it elsewhere - this is not the place. Sincerely, the thread police.

I agree with you ItsAllGoingToBeFine, this isn’t the thread for that.

Where can I sign up for a support for Catalonia peaceful democratic discussion about separation campaign? Every website I've found so far has been seriously arsy.

SteamTrains - haven't they kinda already, what with the Civil Guard??

With respect, I'm afraid we can't really discuss this issue without the context of Scottish independence - others had already brought up contentious "facts", and part of my whole beef with how our own media have been (mis)reporting this is precisely because they have one eye on the Scottish situation.

The EU recognised countries seceding from Yugoslavia before there was any shooting or fighting

I mentioned it not because I think that the outcomes will be in any way similar but rather to counter the argument that there is any such thing as a country whose borders are inviolate and which cannot be dismembered. There is not, and there is precedent for the EU to support such dismemberment if it suits them

With respect, I'm afraid we can't really discuss this issue without the context of Scottish independence

Why are you trying to conflate a legitimate but failed referendum with this illegitimate one? Sturgeon accepts that a second referendum , if it ever happens, must be within the constitutional framework.

There is no comparison between the 2 situations. Unless you are trying to promote some sort of agenda that the people of Scotland are oppressed (or similar nonsense) there is no "context" to discuss.

SteamTrains - haven't they kinda already, what with the Civil Guard??

Sorry I meant the Army.

Awful scenes in Catalonia today, very sad.

Good old British government weren't so good when their army murdered peaceful protesters in Northern Ireland.

How could anyone be so stupid?

elvira

I believe the Spanish constitution recognises a nation's right to self-determination. But it doesn't consider Catalonia a nation. Some rock-solid reasoning there hmm

If the nation concerned is defined in the constitution as "Spain", then the reasoning is absolutely rock-solid. You cannot expect the Spanish government to ignore the laws of the country it's required to govern. On that basis, there was no referendum; legally, nothing happened, Catalonia has no right of self-determination, and (most importantly) the Spanish parliament doesn't have the same freedom to legislate for a referendum as the British parliament did re Scotland; this would have be a matter for all the people of Spain to vote on, as per the 1978 constitution that got a 95% approval vote in Catalonia.

None of which justifies the reported police brutality. You would think that 40 years after the death of Franco the Spanish state would go about things a better way.

& for everyone in Catalonia right now, including those for and against.