what the jeff is going on in Catalunia?

[ludothedog]

whether the vote is legitimate or not, for goodness sake, is deploying riot police to remove voters/protesters the right way? Terrible, Just terrible.

Can you imagine what would have happened if riot police were deployed to stop the Scottish independence referendum?

Surely by denying the Catalan people the vote all they will do is galvanise support for independence?

But if the law prevents democracy from being exercised, I'm not sure what other choice the Catalan Government have other than to just give up

You think what the Catalan government is doing is upholding democracy?

See Toad's explanation of the possible legal route.

Dont worry about it Toad, it was apparent how youd read it (and yes, if you span it differently it could read badly.....)

I misinterpret posts all the time. ' WTF fuckyty ffffffffff. Oh. Youre being nice'.

Its the joys of printed word versus how we all say things in our heads

but surely the Catalan leadership has its own responsibility to avoid unrest on the streets by ensuring that Catalan independence is achieved democratically and legally.

There was no unrest on the streets until the police turned up and caused it.

The Catalan's will tell you they had no choice, but to have an illegal election because Madrid won't even discuss anything. Madrid will tell you that Catalan's gave them no choice because it's unconstitutional to discuss independence.

None of that moves the responsibility for the unrest from the shoulders of those police officers, and those who sanctioned their actions.

Would Scots have been ok with the English, Welsh and NIrish having a vote in their indyref?

Yes. I think they should have had a say.

Yes coconutella that sounds perfectly sensible. It's not rocket science, really, is it?

And laws can be changed. The Spanish constitution was not brought down from The Mountain by Moses The Spanish king was more than happy to change the constitution to make sure his daughter could be queen (instead of favouring a younger brother or the crown passing to the nearest male relative). Mmmmm

You think what the Catalan government is doing is upholding democracy? See Toad's explanation of the possible legal route.

I accept the Catalan Gvt has a legal route, but I don't think the constitution is reasonable as it suppresses the right to self-determination by a people, by subjecting them to the rest of the country who can refuse to accept their right.

*Today 22:54 LassWiTheDelicateAir

Would Scots have been ok with the English, Welsh and NIrish having a vote in their indyref? Yes. I think they should have had a say.

So if, say 75% of Scots had voted leave, but 55% of English had vote for them to stay (55% giving a larger absolute majority as England's population is far bigger than Scotland), do you really think it would have been right to force Scotland to stay?

By the way, I'm a unionist, and don't want Scotland to leave th UK... I just don't think that smaller nationalities should be forced into domination by larger nationalities that co-exist in the same state.

I can't believe that people are saying they can't imagine the British government doing anything like this?!!! Agree.

So if, say 75% of Scots had voted leave, but 55% of English had vote for them to stay (55% giving a larger absolute majority as England's population is far bigger than Scotland), do you really think it would have been right to force Scotland to stay?

I assume by "Scots" you mean people who live in Scotland but yes I think it was such a major constitutional to the UK that the whole of the UK should have had a say.

This is what I would call the dictatorship of the majority. That way a minority would never be able to 'democratically' free itself.

This is what I would call the dictatorship of the majority. That way a minority would never be able to 'democratically' free itself.

Agreed... the Republic of Ireland would probably still be part of the UK if this principle had been adopted. I fundamentally disagree with you Lass.

And it's this 'adherence to 'dictatorship of the majority' principle that is used to justify persecution of minority group, the Rohingya being the most obvious current example.... though clearly I'm not suggesting that Catalans are being persecuted anything like as severely.

So if, say 75% of Scots had voted leave, but 55% of English had vote for them to stay (55% giving a larger absolute majority as England's population is far bigger than Scotland), do you really think it would have been right to force Scotland to stay?

You could always weight votes not beyond the wit of man. Although that then underscores the fact that the constituent parts of the minority entity have more "power" than the equivalent of the majority. (e.g. 1 "English"="10 Scots").

Do people who feel that both countries need to agree on a separation also agree the same should apply in divorce ? With one partner having a permanent veto over the other ? Or is that different ?

"This is what I would call the dictatorship of the majority. That way a minority would never be able to 'democratically' free itself."

Unless of course a democratic nation and all its citizens had agreed to accept rule by a majority vote, and defined that as the fundamental pillar of their democracy. Like in the UK. Until brexit happened. Then suddenly the 'minority' decide they dont like this whole 'majority' thing and would prefer something else.....

Unless of course a democratic nation and all its citizens had agreed to accept rule by a majority vote, and defined that as the fundamental pillar of their democracy. Like in the UK. Until brexit happened.

The UK has never been "ruled" by the EU (in the same way it has never been ruled by the UN, or any other international organisation.) To the extent that there's actually a formal mechanism to leave the EU - article 50.

However Scotland is ruled by Westminster. To the extent there is no formal mechanism to leave the UK.

The democratic and legal route appears to be to allow all Spain to decide. Those are the rules that Catalonia itself signed up to. And that's the difference to, say, Scotland and Ireland as no such rule has ever existed in the UK.

I really do think that it's significant that Catalonia, by popular vote, choose to adopt a constitution that emphasised the unity of Spain. As its people signed up for those rules, it's not OK to turn around and insist they be junked because... well, because why exactly? It's all very well to insist that nations have the right of self-determination, but does it follow that any the spokespeople of any definable group should have the right to cause all manner of social and economic disruption by demanding multiple referenda and other privileges?

Bearing in mind that Spain was a dictatorship until the 70s, isn't it particularly important that legal process is followed and that the Catalan authorities not encourage millions of people to take part in a mass contempt of court?

Fwiw, had WW1 not got in the way, Irish independence could have been achieved peacefully via Dominion status as with Australia, NZ, SA and Canada. Or at least more peacefully. An interesting fact re Edward Carson, the barrister who ruined Oscar Wilde's career is that he also raised a volunteer army in Ulster to fight home rule, which was very much on the cards in 1913.

If you are arguing for democracy you are on thin ice in relation to the Catalan government.

I fundamentally disagree with you Lass

Fair enough. However I resent having a "Scots" nationality foisted on to me. I agree with Toad's last post.

elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/03/inenglish/1507025584_438952.html

Really not sure what the leader of the Catalan government is playing at. Unilaterally declaring independence? It's an illegal move. Yes the reaction of the national polive was way OTT but from their perspective they were trying to prevent law breaking.

Comparing Catalunya to Scotland is not a fair comparison. Scotland was once a separate country with separate monarch until 1600 and something and a separate partliament until 1700 and something. Catalunya has never been its own country. It has always been part of the kingdom of Aragon, joined to Castilla by the marriage of Ferdinand and Isabella in 1490 something or other. Yes, tehy have a separate language which is a mish mash of French and Spanish and which is also spoken in parts of SW France. The Generalitat has a lot of devolved power - like the devolved administrations in Wales or Scotland. The situation in Spain at the moment is more akin to Merseyside or Norfolk trying to run a referendum to declare themselves independent from England.

Neither side are coming out of this covered in glory. The Madrid government could have allowed the referendum to go ahead legally and avoided the drama and violence. Of course this runs the risk of the Catalans voting to become independent, and the Madrid government knows its economy would be fucked without Catalunya's contribution. On the other hand, the Generalitat has ignored the correct process and has ploughed on regardless - they KNEW that Sunday's vote was invalid/illegal, that it wasn't representative, and now they're saying it was 90% in favour of independence and are going to declare independence?

Both BARKING. I really hoped Felipe would have made a "calm the fuck down and here's the plan" speech but he bottled it. His father gained a huge amount of respect for his address to the people after an attempted coup in 1981 by Tejero but his son bottled it.

Unilaterally declaring independence?

A phrase I recall from my youth with Rhodesia ...

Spain has sent in the army. This is not going to end well for anybody

I'm all for self determination and as a Londoner who voted remain think we should call an illegal referendum very quickly to secede from the rest of the UK so we can keep all the money for ourselves and not have to subsidise poorer parts of the country. Any objections?

This is the source of the story Itsallgoingtobefine.

www.elconfidencial.com/espana/2017-10-04/el-gobierno-envia-al-ejercito-a-barcelona-como-apoyo-logistico-a-la-guardia-civil_1455021/

I gather its beds, cooking equipment, supplies etc for the police. However. Wouldnt be the first time an armed force has moved in under 'beds, cooking equipment, and supplies.....'

Guess DHL wouldnt take the contract?

I'm all for self determination and as a Londoner who voted remain think we should call an illegal referendum very quickly to secede from the rest of the UK so we can keep all the money for ourselves and not have to subsidise poorer parts of the country. Any objections?

Why not ? There was talk in 2014 that if there were Scottish independence Orkney and Shetland would opt to stay in the UK.