what the jeff is going on in Catalunia?

[ludothedog]

whether the vote is legitimate or not, for goodness sake, is deploying riot police to remove voters/protesters the right way? Terrible, Just terrible.

Can you imagine what would have happened if riot police were deployed to stop the Scottish independence referendum?

Surely by denying the Catalan people the vote all they will do is galvanise support for independence?

I am in Catalonia at the moment and it was heartening to see the way the people occupied the polling stations from Saturday, removing the doors to ensure they wouldn't be locked out. Police were standing around but we had no way of knowing whether they were Catalan police or one of the many Spanish police forces. They didn't look threatening and everything seemed peaceful though tense.
I am Scottish and had a similar situation happened during our referendum (Westminster trying to prevent us voting) then I am sure the result would have been very different. Spain seems to have scored an own goal.

toadinthehole the Spanish constitution calls Spain a nation but the other groups (Basque, Catalan) are called "nationalities".

They had to come up with something in order to reconcile wildly different positions at the time they wrote it - and they did a pretty good job. But the difference between the two terms is not clear and it has been the subject of semantic and legal discussion in Spain since.

The matter is far from clear cut and had there been some political goodwill the Spanish government could have taken a different view on it.

As it happens the people in Madrid are on a different planet where "the use of force was proportionate" and "we acted calmly and efficiently"

Well I know nothing about the laws of Spain, but it does strike me that it's a bad look for the Catalans that the Spanish Constitutional Court ruled the previous referendum invalid.

And I agree with your last paragraph entirely

Why don't the Spanish police just allow people to go and vote but not recognise the outcome as valid? They said it is an illegal vote, why not just call it invalid because they failed to go through the proper channels or whatever and ignore the outcome? The violence is appalling and seriously damaging.

And this isn't comparable to Scotland because Catalunia isn't a separate country. It's more like if Cornwall wanted independence.

Quite, Dr, I said something similar upthread. Not only is the violence appalling and utterly indefensible in a democratic country, it's such a spectacularly stupid own goal on the part of the government in Madrid. Like you say, the sane thing would have been to do the politician's favourite "stuck record technique": "This supposed referendum has been ruled unconstitutional in court, therefore not only does it have no legal status, it also means 'no' voters won't bother to turn out, so it can't even be representative on an advisory level..." Sending paramilitary police in just seems so stupid.

I've been mulling over the press coverage. OP said she hadn't heard much in the run up to it, but I had, so I thought it would be interesting to do a quick round-up of the media sources I use, and a compare and contrast with a few European sources.

BBC - extensive coverage.
Independent - lead story, lots of coverage.
Telegraph - has dropped down their web page to the foreign news section.
Guardian - one opinion piece (headline in very small type).
(I don't have a Times subscription)
So some of the Brit press seems to be having a "little Englander" moment over this.

El Pais leads with it (not surprisingly), but so too do Le Monde and Le Figaro (it's bumped the stabbings in Marseille from top spot) and the Frankfurter Allgemeine.

Saw a photo this morning of the riot police in a polling centre.

Before they arrived, the people at the centre hid the ballot boxes and by the time the police were there they were sitting around playing dominoes

Love that!

I am Scottish and had a similar situation happened during our referendum (Westminster trying to prevent us voting) then I am sure the result would have been very different

What point are you trying to make other to demonstrate you don't understand constitutional law?

Had Westminster attempted to prevent us voting Westminster would have been acting illegally as the referendum was legal.

Had Sturgeon pressed on with a second referendum Westminster would be entitled to stop it / ignore it- (although I am 100% sure if she had tried that members of the public would have gone to court to interdict her anyway)

Before they arrived, the people at the centre hid the ballot boxes and by the time the police were there they were sitting around playing dominoes

This is great, but I think it's fucking terrifying that in 2017, in order to express an opinion in a ballot (and btw- whether legal or not, that's all they were really doing, isn't it?) people have to hide from their own police force, and use tactics that wouldn't be out of place in a Dario Fo play.

What the actual fuck were Madrid thinking???

They could have just let it go ahead, and treated it as an opinion poll, instead all they have done is galvanize many more people into action.

If they were aiming to push Catalonia further towards demands for Independence, they've done a fucking good job- so good in fact one has to wonder if they did it on purpose!

And shame on the police for their actions, disgusting thugs. I don't care if they were just following orders.

Nothing but respect for the "Bombers" (firefighters) and some of the local police, who formed human barriers to protect voters from the riot police, at massive risk to themselves, and their jobs.

Heroes.

Yeah this looks like a proportional response, doesn't it??

More heroes.

You only need to watch 20 seconds in before the police properly start battering innocent, unarmed people, with no provocation whatsoever.

I don't have words strong enough to express just how fucking disgusted I am with this, and very worried about what this says for the future of democracy, everywhere.

Ooops video would help!

Spot the difference......

It's horrifying

There was a video on Twitter last night, of some really young, terrified, sobbing young local police officers, bravely forming a barrier protecting voters from the national police

No helmets, guns, vests or sheilds.

They are a million, billions times braver and stronger than the armed thugs in full riot gear firing rubber bullets.

Also video of local police actively facing down the riot squad.

If you think this wouldn't happen in the UK???

It already has, for years and years.

My partner was battered by police at a peaceful demo.

My mum was battered on a picket line.

Remember when police raided a traveller convoy, and assaulted pregnant women, smashed up homes in frfont of little children??

This could happen here, anytime.

Democracy is a fucking joke.

If you think this wouldn't happen in the UK???

Already has - Orgreave, Battle of the Beanfield, are two which immediately come to mind.

Prickly, it’s front page on the Times today...

Lana I saw those police crying, it was so sad.

Maybe I am missing the point entirely but why didn't the Spanish government let the vote go ahead and when the result was announced just say thats fine but the Constitution states that Spain must be unified. Completely simplistic I know but it would surely have caused less damage to the country. Attacking Spanish citizens couldn't be the answer of anyone sane.

Presumably they sent in the police to warn any other nationalities who might follow suit? If that is the case they have just committed hari kari. Who would be so f***g stupid?

My DD lived in Tarragona for a while and loved the language and the people. She is 20 and cried a lot yesterday.

I have a feeling that this is going to get very serious. Whose next - Italy?

Agreed Emerald . I also don't understand why the anti independence faction did not go to court to apply for an injunction on a referendum going ahead, which they would have got, to emphasise the illegality.

Puigdemont is claiming there can be a unilateral declaration of independence but there is no basis for that.

The videos & images are shocking. It's a disgrace.

It is a disgrace.

Although the separatists cannot wash their hands of responsibility. The constitutional court declared the referendum illegal and they know the European commission would not recognise it.

The Spanish government are the worst of the 2 but the Catalan government is very far from squeaky clean.