what the jeff is going on in Catalunia?

[ludothedog]

whether the vote is legitimate or not, for goodness sake, is deploying riot police to remove voters/protesters the right way? Terrible, Just terrible.

Can you imagine what would have happened if riot police were deployed to stop the Scottish independence referendum?

Surely by denying the Catalan people the vote all they will do is galvanise support for independence?

Can't help thinking the images of today's state violence against Catalans is only get worse as more and more people are able upload their experiences.

The story has been all over Radio 4 news all week.

Assange is an asshat. OYBBK is correct, Russia will be loving this - more destabilisation in Europe - they'll be clapping their hands with glee.

One of the most stupid things I read on here during the Scottish Independence debacle was an Independence supporter proudly proclaiming she was getting her news and facts re. the referendum from Russia Today because they were a more trustworthy source than the BBC. I could have wept. The quicker critical thinking is taught in schools from the age of 5, the better of we'll all be!

Suppose the NI assembly majority becomes Sinn Fein, can they organise a referendum in NI (or the whole of the island of Ireland) without the agreement of the UK government?

I think they should be able to, yes.

Can any small town declare independence?

I'm not sure a small town would have the resources and structures to be able to support itself as an independent country so so don't think they should try.

Should London be allowed to separate and leave the rest of the UK to it's own devices, just because the majority of people want it?

Yes (assuming you mean the majority of Londoners)

It's a bit dodgy to say "this part of this country wants independence; they have a right to it"

It's a bit dodgy to say that a semi-autonomous region/country that feels it is not being treated fairly by its government just has to suck it up. Why shouldn't a region or country have the democratic right to leave the country / union etc.

I have heard several interviews/read articles where anti independence Catalan residents have said they support the referendum. Before all the violence and closing down of polling stations, there appeared to be a majority against independence. After the Spanish government's actions today that may have all changed.

I am an EU Remoaner, but tbh have been astounded at the lack of response from the EU to what's happening in Spain.

It's appalling - I started a thread last week - which ended with a crass joke about Catatonia. I have friends in tarragona- a beautiful city which has seen scores of innocent peaceful people injured. A sad sad day

Just see FC Barcelona (removed for succinctness) have issued a statement condoning the violence and saying the game will be played behind closed doors

Condoning it? Or condemning it? Those are very different things.

Guy Verhofstadt has made a statement condemning the violence. But EU damned if they do, damned if they don't on this to some extent.

First of all, re the "Spanish veto" - that was debunked ages ago.

Regardless of whether you support independence or not, the point is, we should be supporting the democratic right to decide! What are the Catalans to do? They have asked & asked for a "legitimate" referendum only to be told no. You have to give people their say. You can't claim to be a democratic country when you ban voting and you fire bullets at people at polling stations!

Does the Spanish gov duty of care to its people mean it can order it's police force to fire rubber bullets at them????? Did the UK government duty of care to its people extend to catholics in ni? ?

This isn't about a duty of care - it's about allowing a democratic vote.

By using "but" you are suggesting that the violence is somehow inevitable

To a point yes- I agree with MaryZ's points.

First of all, re the "Spanish veto" - that was debunked ages ago -it has not but carry on with your pipedreams.

It is disingenuous to compare this to London declaring independence from the rest of the uk

A better comparison might be with Slovenia, which declared its independence from Yugoslavia, at which point it was recognised as independent. No one outside of slovenians got to vote on that either.

We have precedent here in this country for one part of the nation (England) effectively deciding the fate of another (Scotland) with respect to leaving the EU. Scotland did not cast a majority in favour of leaving, but they are leaving anyway.

it would seem independence is fine when other people want it...

I read that the Spanish ambassador to the UK said that the Spanish written constitution made holding a referendum impossible, legally speaking, because it required Spanish unity. If so, the Spanish government would be in a massive bind.

In contrast, no part of the UK is entitled to an independence referendum, but Parliament at Westminster can legislate for one to be held (eg Indyref).

Regardless of whether you support independence or not, the point is, we should be supporting the democratic right to decide!

Really? As we've seen recently, referenda can be disruptive and not solve anything.

Also all governments have to uphold the rule of law, and in Spain this means Spanish unity, it seems. Changing this would be a decision for all Spain, not just the Catalans and would probably be by 2/3rds majority vote.

Didn't the Catalans have another referendum a little while back?

This isn't about a duty of care - it's about allowing a democratic vote.

The police have been out of order, but it is not a democratic vote as its not legally binding, only one side is trying to make it so.

It has shone a light globally of the issues in Spain but it isn't black and white either, there are videos of facists salutes from separtists the problem is that as others have mentioned, a lot of the no vote was not even going to vote as they understood it as about as effective as a change.org petition. The problem now is that the overreaction will have swayed many more to vote, there are even solidarity protest going on in madrid. The issue will show itself in the next few hours when polls close.

Well, I don't know what you're suggesting they do if Madrid won't even come to the table & negotiate? It got to this point because the Spanish govt do not want to even talk. It very much looks like the state imposing its views on the people and denying the people the right to self-determination. Not a good look.

I have a friend in Barcelona - he is a No voter, feels more Spanish than Catalan, but he is enraged at the Spanish govts handling of this.

(And LassWiTheDelicateAir - yes it has, countless times! Spanish Foreign Minister, MEPs etc all on record saying they would not veto an independent Scotland nor interfere, but you carry on denying it...)

What they do is force the Spanish government to hold a referendum on changing the Spanish constitution to all allow Catalan independence I suppose. Presumably they can take them to court.

As for self-determination, was Rhodesia entitled to self determination from Britain in 1965?

The partition of Ireland didnt involve a vote I think??

I don't know if I'd support independence - but I do support the right to self determination.

Penny condemning, that will teach me to post and not re-read my posts!

Catalunya is an autonomous region with its own Parliament, laws, police force as well as its own language and education system. Borders are clear.

The EU already have backed that with respect to the disintegration of Yugoslavia.