SDs dressing inappropriately

[Winosaurus]

I originally posted this on the step-parent board but posting here for traffic.

I know I'm going to get flamed for this but today this has reached a new peak.
My DP has to DDs 12 and 8, they dress so inappropriately I'm sometimes lost for words. They both are wear a full face of make-up and clothes that barely cover their bodies and I'm really struggling with this for several reasons.

1. People look at them constantly when we go out because of how revealing their clothes are and I'm worried it'll attract the wrong attention and potentially put them in danger - particularly as 12yo is getting older.
2. My DD7 now wants to copy them which is causing issues and uncomfortable conversations to come up as I obviously won't let her dress this way but I also don't want to be critical of SDs or their mother for allowing them to dress this way (she buys most of their clothes)
3. I honestly find it embarrassing. When we are out as a group/family people automatically assume I'm their mum and I've had women in particular make remarks about how they are dressed.

I've talked to DP about this and pointed out not only the inappropriateness of their overall looks but also how it could put them in danger. He agrees with me and will occasionally ask SD8 to remove her make-up but overall he doesn't seem to see how wrong it is. I am not being mean about the girls, they are lovely but it's getting to the point where it's making me uncomfortable to be on outings with them when they have their bottom cheeks hanging out of their shorts or transparent crop-tops on. How can I get my partner to see it objectively?

Anyone who goes on line and tries to convince a parent that an eight or 12 year old girl in highly revealing clothing and full make up is fine is someone I think most of us would wonder about what was sitting at the key board and typing and why they wish to encourage this.

^this

I once took a school trip of 13 year olds abroad. Students had small amount of free time for shopping in a city centre. One group of girls in particular were dressed in a similar way to the Ops description, very short shorts, crop tops, lot of make-up.

This group of girls arrived early to the meet up point, distressed because they were being followed about by a group of oldish men who were making obscene comments about their appearance and rude gestures at them.
We audited outfits at breakfast after that and made them change if we felt clothes were inappropriate.
Clothes do not cause rape, but in this case they certainly did cause unwanted attention and sexualised behaviour which children of that age should not be exposed to.

I dunno. I see both sides. I mean yes, OTOH in an ideal world girls wouldn't be judged/ suffer harassment for what they wear because people (men included) would just see it for what it is: just playing with dress up.

OTOH we know that we don't live in that world and want to equip our DDs to operate in a world where clothes do matter.

The question is, how do we change the rules if we continue to observe them?

I still can't believe that people are still trying to suggest that it's totally appropriate for pre teens to be dressed up young adults in clothing designed to get male attention.

I used to wear cycle shorts (you know those ones from thr 90s with awful prints) as a kid. They were short and clingy but gor CHILDREN.

It's not just about what's on show. It's about how it's styled. E.g. a pre teen wearing those cycling shorts and a t shirt with no makeup looks like a child still.
A pre teen wearing denim hot pants with the bottom of her bum showing along with a full face of make up has been TAUGHT that that is how WOMEN should dress to get attention and be noticed.

By teaching these girls that they need a full face of makeup to be pretty, that they need heels, tiny crop tops ans short shorts to be noticed, the mother is TEACHING her girls that what matters is how they look. And this isn't just how they look, it is how they look as defined by what makes men like you.

I've seen pre teens in denim hot pants that come down just below the bum. They've worn them with t shirts / hoodies & flip flops / trainers. They look great. But they look great BECAUSE they are dressed appropriately for their age.

I agree Maisy

A rapist will harm you. Yes.

But it will have fuck all to do with your skirt. Or your lipstick.

People keep asserting things like this but how do they know it? How can anyone prove that there are not men who will focus on the person in a short skirt and low-cut top over the next woman in a baggy jumper and ankle-length skirt, due to a belief that the former will be more likely to be up for it?

It doesn't even have to be a case of him then trying to get her alone and holding her down. He might be one of those rapists who doesn't realise this, and if she's drunk or doesn't resist then a lack of no and pre-existing belief that she was up for it may see him go ahead?

How do people know that dress is never a factor in someone's thought processes. That said...

In fact, some research shows that, since rape and sexual assault are about power, rapists often avoid women who seem sexually confident and have dressed to draw attention to their bodies.

Which would mean that dress is a factor, for at least some rapists. And of course, the researchers can only ever work with known or reported cases. Which are by no means going to be the majority. So how can people know that whatever can be inferred from what is known, can be extrapolated to ALL cases.

I'm not entirely sure how this thread became about rape
My concern was that I don't think the girls should be encouraged (or allowed) to be dressing much older than their age.

I don't know why this has become a discussion about rape

I think I do.

I get that people are distinguishing between the unwanted sexual attention a girl might get and actual rape.

It's sn5 important distinction. Those boys with their comments and stares aren't rapists.

Rapists won't care what you're wearing. True.

But by identifying any clothing as 'likely to get sexual attention' you are opening a dangerous door. If that 'sexual' clothing isn't appropriate for a 12 year old, what about when an 18 year old wears it? Is she fair game? And where is the line between sexual and nonsexual? Where is the hem line?

It's a very, very murky area. Yes, we know that clothing doesn't influence rape BUT when you've got a whole area of clothing that is somehow accepted as 'sexualised' - even if there's no hard and fast rule about which clothes are in that genre- you're opening the door for doubt, for questions in court - well how short was her skirt when she was groped?

We need to grow up and accept that NO clothes give ANY permission of any sort. Then there's no doubt. Women's clothes choices ARE irrelevant in sexual assault.

But if we if we won't let them be inconsequential in everyday life, we are on a slippery slope.

If we allow people to agree that, yes, in the 'real world' these comments are expected and normal, then we participate in the control of women in this way.

Yes. Those comments do happen (though of course women out jogging etc in totally 'non-sexualised' clothes get catcalled too all the time) - but we shouldn't normalize those comments. We actually perpetuate the cycle by accepting it and encouraging our daughters to think they 'have their heads screwed on' if they unflinchingly acccept that certain clothes will get them into trouble.

And if we state plain falsehoods like clothed will put you in physical danger, then we are clearly getting nowhere.

But btw OP I wouldn't want my daughters wearing loads of make up and looking ridiculous either.

What I wouldn't do, which is what some posters have done, is imply they'll come to a sticky end if they do.

Mummy. I wasn't allowed "unfettered access" to anything and everything. I was obsessed with the Spice Girls and so allowed to watch Top of the Pops and buy those kiddy/pre-teen pop magazines anytime they were on the cover. I had very little exposure to these images and yet still I wanted to emulate what they looked like.

You can feel as smug as you like about how your 9yo never has access to television or reading materials that you haven't vetted first, but that's completely unhelpful for the OP. She's only got her SDs a maximum of 50% of the time, if not less. If their mother's giving them spray tans etc., banning make-up and these clothes during the time spent with them will make little long-term difference and may just make them feel alienated and less likely to go to her should they ever need her support if they do receive unwanted attention.

Merchant this huge difference is at 18 they would be adults and entirely free to wear whatever they want, be capable of consent and also be more mature and better equipped emotionally to deal with any attention their attire brings them.
At 12 and 8 they are none of those things. As children they are not capable of making adult decisions or protecting themselves. That is our job as parents

My worry isn't about rape but about two young girls - 12yo in particular perhaps being thrust into situations she is not ready for due to her outward appearance. That is what people don't seem to understand.
Consenting teens get up to all sorts - it is not rape. However if she is presenting herself as a 15-16yo she may find herself being pressured (or even wanting to consent) to situations and experiences that are far too much for a 12 yo to handle.
Drink, smoking, sexual activity or even being privy to conversations a 12 yo should not be listening to as people assume she's older.

This isn't about rape - but appearing older than you are at such a young age is dangerous for so many reasons!!!!

To me allowing young girls to wear inappropriate clothing is a sign of poor parenting. I would then be concerned about other areas of their lives, are they allowed to roam the streets, have unrestricted access to the internet/social media etc which could lead them into all kinds of dodgy situations.

There are some seriously batshit responses on here.

When I was a young child I wanted to wear all manner of things. I was consistently told no, by my mother, and the reasoning given was that it was inappropriate for my age. This included heels and makeup. I found this hugely frustrating, but as an adult I realise...

SHE WAS RIGHT.

CHILDREN, I repeat, CHILDREN, should not be dressing and behaving as adults before they are emotionally equipped to deal with the fallout, whatever it may be.

OP I don't disgree with what you're trying to do. And yes - when they're 18 it will be their choice.

But are you actually saying that when they're 18 it will be acceptable for them to get unwanted sexual attention? I don't think you are. But I think some posters need to think about the logical end point of their acceptance of 'the rules'.

at 18 they would be adults and entirely free to wear whatever they want, be capable of consent and also be more mature and better equipped emotionally to deal with any attention their attire brings them.
At 12 and 8 they arenoneof those things. As children they are not capable of making adult decisions or protecting themselves.*
That is our job as parents
This. I would NEVER say that what a woman wears causes her to be attacked.

But, I would say that allowing a child to dress in a way that is provocative/too old does risk opening the doors to situations that they lack the emotional maturity to deal with (note i am not talking about rape or attacks here).

E.g. i wear a sexy outfit and a man is interested in me. I decide to go on a date with him. I can decide whether I am going to sleep with him or not. I have that agency because I am an adult woman with the maturity to make those choices and the emotional capacity to knwo how to get myself out of a situation that I don't want. (thinking creepy relationship here/i'm not that into him). So I would make my excuse at the end of the meal and get my own taxi home.

A 13 year old girl dresses that way and geta attention from a 16/17 year old boy and feels flattered/grown up doesn't have the same emotional maturity as me. She may go on a date and at the end feels pressured to do more with him than she is ready for but feela she should because she's already gone on a date with him and he could get an older girl who would do those things. So she gets more physically involved than she is ready for.

No Merchant I am not saying that, don't twist things. I am saying that IF they get unwanted sexual attention as an adult then they are able to better deal with it than a 12 yo

Merchant, you are coming across as slightly unhinged in your desperation to turn the thread into something its not.

op, I hope you've got enough from this thread to know that most posters agree with you that the girls going around dressed like that with a full face of make up isn't on. But what do you do about it, have you spoken to their dad yet? As you say, it might take some unwanted attention right in his face before he wakes up and realises not everyone sees his girls as the babies he thinks they are. But I hope he sees sense long before this and has a word with their mum.

Its a difficult situation for you and it must be so upsetting to see the girls ruining themselves without realising it.

Ok so the example today is SD12 has hotpants on which show almost the full cheeks of her bottom (like denim knickers) and a crop top which has little holes all the way through so you can see her bra.
8yr old has similar shorts (crease of bum cheek visible as she walks) and an off the shoulder top which is cut high at the stomach too.
Both have a full face of make up on including highlighter and quite dark lipsticks.

Responses on here are mind blowing.

Hands up who dressed/dress their daughters of this age like this then?

Thought not.

Of course they wouldn't dress THEIR children like that polly.
They just want to sound liberal and cool online. We all know they'd inwardly if they saw pre teens all spray tanned, face full of makeup and dressed up like that.

SMH at some of the comments oh here.

Of course dressing this way is inappropriate and will be attracting male attention, the SD's will be judged by the way they dress. It's a fact.

I would worry why at these young ages they are compelled to dress this way and attention seeking.

Unfortunately as a SM you don't have any jurisdiction over their outfits & make-up, only their DM & DF do.

Your strongest argument, however, is the fact that they are influencing your DD who wants to start dressing the same.

My concern was that I don't think the girls should be encouraged (or allowed) to be dressing much older than their age

I think it has more to do with self respect - do they have any?
With parents like theirs they've probably never been taught it.

Op I may have missed this but do the girls sleep over at yours?
If so i think you have more control over their situation.Could you try something like, right come and get your breakfast now,before they have a chance to put make up on.
Then say right, we are leaving in 20 minutes you don't have to to mess about putting make up on, just put a bit on if you must but no foundation or blusher please.
With regard to clothing, can you tell them to put5 a fleece on. Now the weather is turning say, you can't wear shorts put something warmer on.

heebie
The girls probably do and want to have self respect.
The issue is that their mother probably buys into all this make up, spray tan, look pretty for the boys crap and is teaching them that's what they will be valued for.

It's such a shame for those girls that the message they are getting is 'be a nice girl and look pretty'.

Out of interest, does their mum dress like this?