To have told DP I won't move for his job unless we're engaged/ married?

[KeepCalmAndTrotOn]

We're both early 30's, been together 4 years, he may be facing redundancy early next year and has been looking around for other, similar roles.

In the last 2 weeks he's notified me of two roles that he's interested in, one the other side of the country and one in a different country. Both times he's started talking about what we'd do if/ when we moved if he got the roles etc.

In all honesty, both times I haven't exactly been thrilled or keen on the idea of moving to either place, especially as all of my family, friends and business are where we are currently.

He saw another role today and tonight over dinner said 'Would you be up for moving to XXX place?' I piped up and said 'Not really, not unless we were married, or at the v least engaged. I'd have to give up my business (we'll move it, which is essentially the same thing in my line of work) my friends, my family etc. I don't know if I'd want to do that for someone who won't commit to me long term'

He got arsey and the conversation ended (we were out in a restaurant and he said he 'didn't want to do this here' )

WIBU? AIBU?!

U agree with what's been said,
Put yourself first.
So many threads on here where a woman has moved to be with her oh and is now isolated and alone. No financial security either as looking after a home/children/ putting your oh first counts for absolutely nothing when it comes down to basics.

Yanbu at all.
What would he do if you proposed to him?

alltoucedout do you think that would be a good idea?

Very sensible attitude . I wouldn't move with a man unless I had a ring on my finger . A wedding one though , I know a couple of women with engagement rings and it's just to buy the bloke time and keep their girlfriend happy .

OP what are the living arrangements? Do you both own the house or is it his house? If it's the latter you've been paying off his mortgage but are left in a more vulnerable position if you break up. I couldn't be with someone who couldn't have an open, honest dialogue about the future. His lack of willingness to discuss this is a red flag for me, he then shuts you down. I just wouldn't entertain marrying someone like that. It also appears that he sees your business as a hobby and his job is the main priority, basically its all about him. Good luck OP. Get a plan in place ASAP.

Just popping back with these
I imagine this is very difficult to view set out starkly as we see it.
Romantic goggles blur a lot of facts.

DON'T show him this thread. He'll just convince himself that you are being 'influenced' by people harpies who 'hate men'. It'll make him even more stubborn and self righteous. It will also give him the opportunity to read your thoughts and use them against you.

DO write him a letter. Use the thread for 'wording' and for a self-reference for points you wish to make. Review the thread, jot down words and phrases that say what you want to say then form your letter. Give it to him, say 'we'll talk after you've read this' (not 'let me know when you're ready to talk'), and walk away. Give him privacy to read the letter, don't hover. Go for a walk, a drive, call someone and sit in their house for an hour or so. Then go home and talk.

Listen, I'm another one who finds it hard to remain calm when discussing something important to me. My voice gets shrill, rises to a squeak, or I cry. It is a 'negative' when discussing/arguing because it allows the other person to get top-lofty with "I will not have you shouting" and "Don't get hysterical" and shut down the discussion. It allows them to denigrate our position with 'You're just being emotional, you're not thinking logically' and to feel 'right' because they can remain calm. So you have to learn to say "I'm going into the kitchen/bedroom to calm myself down. I WILL be back and we WILL finish this". Then do it.

This is your life you are talking about, your future. You deserve the life you want. Not the life he wants you to have.

I'd think long and hard about any letter, though. Because he'll do this again if/when you want kids. Another battle, or if you want more than one. Geezo. Life is hard enough as it is without having to deal with someone you're incompatible with. Just keep thinking about the end goal. Picture yourself at 40, no kids, in another country with FA, and a divorce. And him, off with some younger woman, married and her pregnant, gushing to all about how wonderful fatherhood is and what a family man he is and how it just felt so right and blah blah blah. Google Guy Pearce and read all his statements about how he didn't need kids, there were too many kids in the world, he didn't have the right temperament to be a father. He and his wife of 18 years split when she was nearly 50 and in record time his 'new' girlfriend's pregnant and now he has a son.

There are seperate issues here. I don't think you can demand he marries you?!

Your business is where you are And you want a ring in exchange for giving it up?!

Why?

You should support yourself? And ensure you always are in a position to do so.........

Just because he doesn't want to marry he has been hammered!

Yes people on here can predict all sorts but give the guy a break!

The op said she never wanted kids but changed her mind. That in itself is a massive stressor nevermind a marriage!

I think you need to take a step back and have a good think.

Say he said yes to getting married & you got married next month, what actually changes? What 'security' or benefits does it actually bring you? If someone wants out, they will leave - married or not.

Moving - married or not, do you actually want to move? Do you actually want to leave your friends & family & have to start over with your business?

I think your desire to be married (just BE married, not even especially to him) is clouding your rational thinking.

As I, and others, have said already...HE s choosing to look further afield for jobs, he's not thinking 'Keep's' life/career is here, how far from here can I commute & looking at jobs within that area, he's just assuming you will move with him & is justbtelling you where that might be to.

He REFUSED to marry you because of £8k start up finance, but he's happy to get you to move, reduce your business to zero again, without a second thought. Nice. Not.

He might 'adore you & do everything for you' on a day to day basis, but that's superficial, when it comes down to important things he doesn't want to know. You are over looking his massive faults because he treats you like a princess. Not. A. Good. Idea.

Lots of rental properties will take dogs once they've met you, you might need to pay a bigger deposit. Imagine how much more trapped you'd be if you moved with him, had no income & had to or wanted to leave. You'd be screwed...and that's without considering the dogs.

I think if you push him he'll agree to getting married & having kids. You'll move & it either won't happen or he'll tire of it because it's not what he really wants and you'll be up shit creek, tied to him for life, responsible for the kids, little or no income and a couple of dogs.

I don't know what else to say to open your eyes, it seems like you're just too hung up on getting him to marry you to think straight. 💐

I've just got home and arghh. It's so awkward, well it's not, I'm making it awkward. I'm trying to not be 'in a mood' but failing massively. He's cheerily asking what I fancy for dinner and I could cheerily punch him in the face.

I don't want to talk about what we're having for fucking dinner, I want to talk about our future or lack thereof. Unfortunately I just don't know if I've got the energy for it today. I've got so much work to be getting on with.

You don't have to talk, he's already telling you how he feels. Start detaching yourself from this. Focus on your work today. He can sort out dinner.

You're not allowed to be 'in a mood' because to him, there's no discussion to be had, because he refused to have it and gaslighted you to shut you up. It worked, so of course he's cheerfully back to the status quo. You are not permitted to be 'in a mood' over this because in his mind, it's done, you're to put up with the status quo. Imagine how much more easily you can tackle work and life, without this hanging over your head.

count I don't know whether op proposing would be a 'good' idea, but I'd be interested to know what she thinks his response would be.

I agree with expatinscotland, he's cheery because you are not discussing this, he thinks you are back in your box.

You've said he knows what you want, and that you've discussed this before, more than once.

How many times do you need to talk before you realise his answer is already there? He doesn't want to marry, you'd have done that or set the date and be planning for it, already.

It's time for a good think. This job thing is going to be crunch point and it's good that there is a crunch point or this could drift on for years in a vague way.

• are you willing to let it drift on? Some women will be. You can go with him without any commitment and hope it develops while you are abroad, knowing it might not happen and the relationship might end while you are away. What would you do in that situation? Lots of women do let things drift on because they love the man and can't face the thought of being without him. Only you know if you can cut the strings or simply can't.
• are you willing to walk away or say to him that you aren't prepared to go? You could say you can't give up your life here while he goes without commitment, but are happy for him to go and have a try at a long distance relationship. Doing this is a possibility.
• do you think that in honesty this isn't going anywhere? If so, can you say that and start to walk away from him, saying this has been a good wake-up call.

I don't think you've given him an ultimatum. And I agree that it would feel awful to marry him if you felt he'd been forced into it. In an ideal world he will genuinely realise how he loves you and wants to be with you and wants the same things as you and is able to happily and willingly commit to marry you, you get married and live happily ever after.

I would have a conversation about this, not about marriage. I'd say this isn't going to be one in a long line of similar conversations, but one big and serious one, after which you will be leaving him to think and reach a final decision.
I would tell him that the jobs abroad has raised a number of questions and made this crunch time.

• that he has known for along time that you want to get married, but you absolutely don't want to force him and are not going to do so.

-that you need to know he is in this for ever. That he wants to be with you and understands that you want to be married and have kids. That you think 4 years is long enough to choose.

• that you want him to take X weeks to seriously think about these issues - not just marriage, but if he really wants to be with you forever and have. Hildren with you and wants the best for you and the two of you together.
• that after he's had this careful think you will have another talk.
• that following that conversation, it maybe that you don't think there's a long term future and will seriously consider/will walk away.
• tell him this isn't an ultimatum but you being honest. That things cannot continue to drift. Moving abroad is a big decision which forced the big issues into the light and choices to be made. So now he is totally free to think and choose.
• offer to move out if it helps him have time to think.

This is what I'd do. I couldn't continue without an answer personally....and Inwould prefer an answer that Indont want to hear to no answer at all. I know not everyone is like this.

Lots of people here have said he is a knob. It could be that he is, or like many men, just rather scared of the forever M thing. Lots of men have felt like this and gone onto become great husbands and fathers. However a choice has to be made and they have to bite the bullet and be honest with themselves one way or another. And now is the time. He may decide that yes, he can't live without you and be brave and go for it. Or he might decide that actually he's just not sure enough, which isn't good enough for you. But this is the time for him to choose one way or the other.

I don't envy you this OP, but I hope you can get an answer one way or the other.

Another one who split mid thirties because ex didn't want marriage and kids despite us being together 10+ years.
I think it took splitting up for him to grow up and realise what he wanted. He tried to get back with me a few months later, but I'd moved on by then and met someone else.
He met his new partner about a year later and they have 2 kids now.

I think some men get stuck at the stage of seeing themselves as still young partying 20's even though they're in their 30's. He might unconsciously feel that settling down with a family is something that middle aged men do.
You do need to sit and talk openly and not let him fob you off.
Start by asking him how he sees his life pannng out?
Does he think family life is for other/older blokes?

OP, I have not read all the posts but I really agree with Londoncheapo.

So it's your home? Or his home, the higher earner, that you currently so willingly provide services and comfort for?

He has what he wants. He's secure as the higher earner. He has no desire to change it and knows full well that currently all options are open to him.

Listen to expat and everyone else on this thread telling you that you're on a hiding to nothing here. Move on.

OP do you own the home?

No, I don't own the home. It's his home.

He's focusing on him, OP, and so are you. Start focusing on you - your business, your family and friends, your life. He's not about that. Londoncheap speaks sense. There are definitely landlords who will take dogs. Start looking at options for moving, actually, his owning hte home is a plus in a split as you can literally just move out.

I've seen similar situations. A friend's boyfriend behaved similarly. Really attentive and lovely but strung her along for several years until he would even discuss the future. They eventually did get married, but about two years in, she initiated their separation. She says he had built himself up to be this amazing "prize" that she had to wait for and almost plead with him to commit, and when he finally did she had started to resent him for it. They had a child and she wanted another, but she probably won't now because her new boyfriend is really young and she's pushing 40.

OP if you want kids ((I wasn't 100% sure whether I wanted children) fair enough. However, in recent years I've come round" when do you plan this? I married late and had fertility issues.

I''d just say decide what you want and work towards that.

Ii just wanted to say that Autumnskiesarelovely is giving very sage advice. Men can afford to wait and wait but women cannot. Unfair but absolutely true.