To have told DP I won't move for his job unless we're engaged/ married?

[KeepCalmAndTrotOn]

We're both early 30's, been together 4 years, he may be facing redundancy early next year and has been looking around for other, similar roles.

In the last 2 weeks he's notified me of two roles that he's interested in, one the other side of the country and one in a different country. Both times he's started talking about what we'd do if/ when we moved if he got the roles etc.

In all honesty, both times I haven't exactly been thrilled or keen on the idea of moving to either place, especially as all of my family, friends and business are where we are currently.

He saw another role today and tonight over dinner said 'Would you be up for moving to XXX place?' I piped up and said 'Not really, not unless we were married, or at the v least engaged. I'd have to give up my business (we'll move it, which is essentially the same thing in my line of work) my friends, my family etc. I don't know if I'd want to do that for someone who won't commit to me long term'

He got arsey and the conversation ended (we were out in a restaurant and he said he 'didn't want to do this here' )

WIBU? AIBU?!

There are other ways to protect your financial position if necessary.

There are, but they all require the initial agreement of the other person and most of them require their ongoing consent. You can be just as committed emotionally as a married couple but you cannot make the same financial commitments outside of marriage.

So eg you can get mirror wills done, but one of you can change it without telling the other. They can purchase any property as joint tenants, but he can sever it if he likes and leave it to whomever he likes. And in OPs case, her financial security rests in her business, which she tells us will effectively be razed if she moves, and she'll have to build it all back up again. So, not much help to her really.

YANBU to want that OP, except personally I'd say married rather than engaged. Although, based on your update, I wouldn't go anyway. After the first post I was going to say it was understandable that he didn't want such an important discussion in public and to raise it with him once you got home, but the second one was more worrying.

So for that reason I wouldn't just 'leave it' either. If he's looking at other jobs in different areas surely the issue is going to have to be raised again anyway pretty soon?

I would start detaching and planning to leave. If he does propose it isn't going to be willingly. How are you going to get him to agree to have children?

You won't have to leave your dogs, plenty of landlords accept pets.

Imagine if you moved, lived there a few years, couldn't get any meaningful work there, and then it turned out he wasn't committed and he broke up with you, you'd have to move home in a worse position than you are now

The same could happen if they were married though. Getting married doesn't guarantee you will be together forever.

OP, if he wasn't looking at jobs in other countries or the other side of this country and you were staying where you are, would you be as keen to get married or have you had the marriage conversation already? Does he even want to get married?

I really hope you're not left disappointed and upset on your birthday. I would have to have it out with him before your birthday, I wouldn't be able to stand the wondering and the hoping in the run up, and the crushing disappointment and hurt if it didn't happen.

YADNBU

I have never seen these scenarios go well for people over 30.
He may well be planning his own exit so is there any point hanging on here without lots of talking? Why wait till an arbitrary date in Dec?
I remember one guy getting an ultimatum and walking away. He was married to someone else and his wife pregnant within a year. Soul destroying for the friend of a friend.
Seize back control and make this about your needs, not just his!

I was with a guy for four years, and at 31 was the third four-year girlfriend he'd had (he was engaged to someone else within six months of us breaking up!)
OP, I wish I'd done what you're doing and taken back control of the situation rather than letting him dictate how I felt day to day.

The same could happen if they were married though. Getting married doesn't guarantee you will be together forever.

It could, but the distinction is that with marriage there's at least some possibility of a financial settlement reflecting that one party made financial sacrifices.

Also OP you mentioned moving into rented if you split, so is your current home owned? By him alone, or do you have a share too?

Good on you for waking up.

This really is your warning sign OP.

You're at crunch point - early 30s. Agree with other posters, the real key issue is children. Don't be one of those women who wait on a bloke like this to be 'ready' (aka leave any permanent committment to adulthood to the VERY LAST MINUTE otherwise they feel they've somehow missed out on being footloose and fancy-free, despite being happy to accept all the other advantages of being in a stable partnership etc.) and end up not having kids.

It's not just kids though. The marriage thing is nothing in itself - it just signifies everything that is wrong here - he does not want to make anything absolutely permanent with you... just in case. Just in case he fancies something different in 5 years time. Your last comment stood out here:

having to pack up my life from him and leave (and leave my dogs too as I would have to go into rental)

I take that to mean you are living in, and presumably helping to fund, a house which somehow does not have your name on it?

Point Made.

To be honest, being marriage or engaged isn't going to change anything. You don't want to go. You don't want to be away from your career or support network. And fair play to you, you sound very wise to hold on to those things. Too many threads begin with "So I gave up my family and job to move to be with him, and now he's thrown me out..." or something.

I'm helping a friend right now with this. He made her move to the rural arse end of nowhere, hours from her family and from any possible meaningful work, then once she was shackled to a kid, told her he didn't love her anymore and he was going to 'explore' his relationship with another woman while she stayed home with the child.

She immediately made plans to move back home. Obviously. And he's rather surprised; he wasn't expecting her to have a voice or any opinions at all. Shock horror, she's an independent person of her own with her own thoughts and feelings.

Modern men want the whole 'wife' package - kids, meals, clean clothes - without any sacrifice on their part (actual marriage, sharing of resources to protect the children.) Look at that bloke in the paper this week who tried to tell a judge his partner of 25 years, mother of his children and both the buyer and mortgage-payer of the house, was just living there 'as a guest'. If they were open about it and said "Would you live in my house as a guest, bear my kids, wash all my shit and be my skivvy, you can't work of course but I might throw you a piee of toast and a fiver now and again", there'd be a lot less shock when they turn out to be tits.

Yes, you can be committed long-term without marriage - I've been happily unmarried to my DP for 12 years and we have a DC. But marriage wasn't my deal breaker. In your situation I'd have moved without a proposal. But had my DP fudged the issue of kids, there's no way I would've packed up my life to follow him.
You know what your deal breaker is but despite your conversations it sounds like your DP might not entirely grasp the finality of it. You need to have one last conversation rather than 'wait and see' - be calm, be clinical, be dispassionate but definitely tell him that if he doesn't want the same things then you can't see how the relationship can survive. If he still blusters and makes excuses not to marry you after that, you have your answer. Good luck!

By saying 'I want marriage' brings the whole subject to decision

Either he wants OP or

He doesn't

There's nothing wrong with starring what you want and how you want it

She's not forcing him into marriage she's forcing him to make a decision

He's free to make that decision

How he reacts to OPs stance is very telling

OP, I'm sorry you're hurting, it's clear you care about him. But I have to echo others, he's not going to commit in the way you want.

You've talked about this before, more than once, he knows what you want, and after the conversation in the restaurant he couldn't even give you that reassurance that he's on the same page.

He's avoiding the subject because he doesn't want to marry you. Harsh as it sounds, you are just his "Miss right now" not "the one", and having seen scenarios like this before, there's a good chance that once you've split, he'll find and settle down with someone else quite quickly.

I'd get your ducks in a row and proceed with a split. Give yourself a chance to find someone on the same page as you. I've just split with someone after a very long time together. We have children, and I just went along with the idea that not getting married was fine. It wasn't and I'm picking up the pieces, but the DCs and I are getting there. If I ever meet someone new, there'll be proper conversations, I'm not going to be a mug a second time.

And don't worry about your dogs and rental. I'm in rental right now, and we can have pets with permission.

Don't move untill yr married...it will be easy to cancel it once you've moved as he will say it's not the right time,blah blah blah

He doesn't want her commitment, he wants her to give up a lot of stuff and make a decision that suits him not her - that's not commitment.

After 4 years together getting married would be a demonstration of commitment.

However, you shouldn't have to demonstrate commitment - it should be something you both want. Not if you do this then I'll ask you to marry me! That is NEVER going to work.

If OP (with or without marriage) makes this move she loses her income and has to re-start her business. How many posts on here do we see where in +5 or +10 years the relationship turns sour and the woman realises she has absolutely no immediate independent means and she's in a town/country she doesn't even want to be in.

OP - I would NOT be pushing for marriage - if he wanted it, he'd have asked already (sorry). He just wants you to tag along on his journey, on his terms. Don't do it.

I think the marriage/engagement thing is a red herring - it's really about whether you want to move away or not.

Speaking as someone who did that, it mattered not one jot that I was/not married when we separated miles away from family or friends. Being married will not protect you emotionally if you split up.

Your instincts and most of the people on this thread are telling you that this man is not going to be with you long term. You want very different things in life and even getting engaged or married won't change that. If you can bring yourself to do it, cut your losses now and end it. It needn't be vicious, just an acknowledgement that the relationship has run its course. Remember every day you spend tied to this person is a day you are not ready and available for a more compatible partner to come into your life.

Take control and move on.

My ex didn't propose.

He got married pretty sharpish after we broke up!

All this chat about 'it's not important to me' usually means 'it's not important to me with you.'

I'm so sorry for how you're feeling. At least if he moves away when you break up, it will make the split easier to deal with.

I agree that what you're asking for is sensible.

Strange that there is such a gap between the rest of his behaviour and this one issue. What did he learn about marriage growing up? What was his parents relationship like? For many people, the prospect of marriage can bring up all sorts of subconscious fears if they witnessed an unhappy marriage as a child.

Or on the other hand, he may just selfishly not want to give a financial commitment.

OP I think this job move issue is a blessing, because it's forced you both to talk about your relationship and where you see it going. It's easy to drift along if everything else in life stays the same, without having to think too hard about whether you're actually where you want to be. But when something comes along to threaten that stability, it gives you the chance to reassess things.

To my mind, wanting to be married before moving isn't about just having a legal agreement between you. It's about saying "if I'm going to uproot myself for this relationship, is it definitely going to be my lifelong relationship, are we in it for ever, because if we're not then I don't want to go".

I remember at your age lots of my friends started to get married, and that was often the trigger for relationships to end. You realise that if you don't want to marry your partner (or get engaged) in your early 30s, when all your friends are doing it, then the chances are you're not with the right person. Several of us ended "happy but drifting" relationships at that time.

OP do you know for certain that this is the man you want to spend your life with? Or is it just easy and comfortable now?

He's stringing you along by the sounds of it. You are nice and he knows this. The marriage thing - you've been clear that you want it and he's coming up with more and more excuses. Debt is no reason not to get married. Me and dh got married when we had nothing, we went to the register office with close family and it was probably cheaper than the restaurant meal you and your partner had the other night! He's just coming up with more and more bullshit to avoid the matter. If he wanted to "secure" you forever, he'd have asked to marry you.
I'd get rid. You say you have friends and family nearby - can any of them take your dogs if you go into rented. Or could you stay with any of them whilst exiting this relationship?
Also don't give up your town/city easily - people easily underestimate the value of a support network and familiarity, particularly if they don't yet have kids. You think that you can keep in touch but it isn't the same.
He's offering nothing to you but wants you to give up everything.

Is he tight/mean about money? Is his reluctance to marry because you simply don't earn enough and he wants to protect his assets?

It does come across that you are living in his house...

I don't understand the whole "I will give him until Christmas/birthday".

If he doesn't propose by your imposed deadline, you are going to leave him, why not just get things in line and go sooner?

Is giving him a deadline not the same as forcing his hand to marriage?

And if he does propose, it could still be another 4 years before marriage and even then, it's not guaranteed so you could be left unmarried at, say, 40.

Surely if it's something wanted by both, it's an equal discussion. We have been married for 3 years, together for 6 years and were engaged after 12 months. We both wanted the same outcome. Not once have we ever give each other an ultimatum and not would we.

I was with someone for about 4 years (late 20s to early 30s). We were happy, it was all good. He got a job 100 miles away. There was no way I considered moving, not even for a second. We limped along for a few months then broke up. A few months later I met someone else, who lived in a different city. I moved to his area after 6 months, without needing to even think about it.