To think you dont put a rapist in a woman's prison?

[bambambini]

Do women really not count here, has all common sense been ababdoned? How is this even possible?

www.cetusnews.com/news/Transgender-rapist-lag-‘put-in-segregation’-over-‘sexual-advances-to-female-prisoners-.BkeCnqnht-.html

Prisoners have to shower together. (That's where all the jokes about soap come from)

I don't want to shower together with even the nicest gay men I know, and certainly not with any strangers, who might not even claim to not be sexually attracted to women.

Forcing women to shower, i.e. be naked in front of males - that alone is a human rights violation.

I would have hoped that, faced with the decision of whether to put a male rapist into a women's prison, common sense and some tiny fragment of, you know, respect of women (ridiculous, I know!) would prevail and they'd decide not to do that to women.

But no, of fucking course not.

Men (and lots of women, sadly) just hate women and have no consideration at all for women, and only care about men's feelings.
(Not so much about men's safety. As soon as you have 2 male prisonser in the women's prison, both of those males are a danger to each other. But they have their genderfeelz validated, hooray!)

One of the cases cited as a reason transwomen should be in women's prisons is "Joanne" Latham, who died by their own hand about a year and a half ago in Milton Keynes prison. Latham had committed a crime (attempted murder) as Eddie Latham, and then got two further life sentences as attempting murder became something of a habit. Latham was so dangerous their own lawyer could not be left alone with them. But it's mean and bigoted to keep transwomen like Latham in a male prison, apparently.

sprinkles because I don't think the answer to girls being harassed by boys about their changing bodies is to take girls away and hide their bodies. I think the answer is to teach boys not to harass.

I don't think it is healthy that women or men should feel more embarrassment/shame/loss of dignity when changing in front of one sex or the other. We should all respect each others bodies. Separating boys from girls all through childhood and puberty just kicks the harassment can down the road. It doesn't deal with the actual problem- in fact it compounds it.

Of course men stare at boobs when they have spent their whole childhood and adolescence never seeing them in the flesh....but we create that situation artificially and to our own detriment.

vestal are you sure that there is a human right to clothing?

Why should I have the human right to clothing when a penis is in the room, but then magically lose it when the penis leaves? Why do I have a human right to clothing in front of men, but not in front of women?

I agree with you on lots of things but there is no human right to not be naked in front of the opposite sex. That is total nonsense.

So, Morphene, if you don't want to "hide girls away", are you advocating for all prisons to be mixed, and sex-segregation ended altogether? And if not, why not?

I'm not sure how all the other women in the world feel, as we are all different. However I'm pretty sure no woman has ever wanted to rape someone with her penis.

Stop the world, I want to get off.

archery hiding girls away has nothing to do with prison. there aren't any girls in prison.

I don't think transwomen should be housed with women in prison.

I do think schools shouldn't be sex or gender segregated. Individual toilet cubicles and no one body shaming anyone during changing for PE would be good.

The only reason it seems he wanted to trans, is because he wants to be amongst women, he is a sexual predator.

And you know what Morphine, that's actually a public conversation, that could be had. Women would, in my view likely win a debate about whether toilets etc should be segregated by sex. Mainly cos men wouldn't like it either. But that's not the conversation that's going on currently. The current conversation involves pretending that some people with a penis are women and therefore should have access to women only spaces. Introducing the suggestion that we should not segregate changing rooms, prisons and refuges wouldn't even get off the ground.

There is a massive, and I always thought very obvious, difference between the advantages and disadvantages of segregation in:

a) primary schools
b) prisons/refuges

The idea that it isn't possible to believe that different solutions should exist in these different cases is astounding to me.

The current conversation involves pretending that some people with a penis are women and therefore should have access to women only spaces. Introducing the suggestion that we should not segregate changing rooms, prisons and refuges wouldn't even get off the ground.

There have been transactivists online stating they would refuse to use gender neutral facilities. Making things gender neutral is an attempt to try and accomodate demands (in fact it usually boils down to removing women only facilities) but transactivism is wanting to retain very definite gender separation in all things: the point is transwomen getting into women only facilities. It's about validation, it's about being around other women and it's about being successful in personally climbing over a boundary.

This I think is the divide between average transpeople and average transactivists.

average transpeople seem to want the boundaries gone so they can just be whatever with no need to define themselves as anything in particular. Average transactivists seem to want the boundaries as obvious and concrete as possible so they can succeed in being on the other side of them.

If I were a transman it would piss me off enormously that the people claiming to advocate for me wanted the opposite of what I want.

Morphene I've seen several very articulate trans MNetters on many threads saying exactly that.

If she a transgender, they should have given her that surgery. Then she will be put in the same level as all other women in prison . No need a dick ejecting sperms into women bodies.

Me too....I think it is a hideous example of appropriation if I'm honest.

Even though I don't care about what people do at school or which restroom they use. I do think prison is a different level. Women in prisons are unable to escape from people who were put in prison for a reason in the first place

I should mention men as well, prison need a reform, actually

But I don't think that total de segregation( is that even a word) in primary schools would find public support either. And it would be fine to have that honest conversation about that but that's not what's happening.

Women in prisons are unable to escape from people who were put in prison for a reason in the first place

Exactly. Women in prison have all their privacy taken away, and cannot even decide, like other women can, to limit themselves and, for example, just not go swimming anymore.

Though the problem is that the whole bathroom debate has transactivists pretend that someone who was born with a penis can be a woman.
Once everyone pretends that, there's just no way one could keep bepenised individuals out of women's prisons, but not women's toilets. Or out of women's saunas, changing rooms and showers, but not women's toilets.
If someone with a penis can be officially a woman, well, one cannot keep women out of women's spaces, obviously.

All the above works very nicely if you have decent rules about sex segregated spaces, because if a male person who behaves decently wants to use the women's toilet with a good reason, women won't complain, and thus everyone is happy.

It is fucking insane to pretend that someone can change their sex and prisons ought to be segregated by sex

This. I am weary of everything not-man being lumped in with woman. Fuck off with the other rapists.

I just don't care what they do in public places. I accept this is who they are. Also, I have no intention to check their pants and none of of my business.

I just feel differently about prisons though but it is a case by case issues for me

If someone has a penis they are a man and should go to a male prison.
I don't see how that is difficult to understand.

Hospitals [panting along late] seem to have dropped off the thread. I started in the NHS in 1996 when most wards had been mixed for about a decade. It originated with well-meaning liberals who looked at institutionalised people in longstay hospitals with many rules to stop the sexes mixing. They felt that was wrong and unnatural. The end result was 80 year old Mavis with a broken hip finding 50 year old Frank detoxing from alcohol wheeled into the bed next to her at 3 am and trying to fend him off every five minutes. Or an 8 stone woman with suicidal depression sleeping in the same bay as a floridly hallucinating 20 stone man - in what was supposed to be a safe assessment space. I was there, I saw it. If you think the NHS doesnt segregate now, you have no idea. The NHS in fact now works very hard to manage sex segregation, and trusts do have policies, which allow segregation by sex because the law recognises the need for it in healthcare. That's the point. There is still sex segregation, but the definition of each sex is the thing being altered. Easy to say that policies should change to meet this new reality - how? What new policy could deal with segregation by something that can be called into being by one person shouting 'Abracadabra'?

Exactly vouce, they are still technically male, if they still have their male genitalia, and shoukd be in a men's prison, despite what they say they are. Unless they have undergone sex reassignment surgery, they shoukd be in a male prison.