To be annoyed at this feminist

[PlayOnWurtz]

I happily call myself a feminist and will enter into discussions about it freely in real life and online. I got into one conversation about appearance and politics and how you rationalise body hair removal with feminism. I said I simply feel unclean, it's nothing to do with politics or being oppressed if I don't remove armpit and leg hair I feel like I need a wash.

Cue me being told that I clearly missed the memo on western socialization and oppression and that me removing body hair to feel clean wouldn't happen if I hadn't been socialised to feel this way erm no love I feel like I need a ruddy good wash if I don't shave I'm not oppressed....

AIBU to be annoyed and more than a bit

I've said it before, but if the word patriarchy gets you eye rolling and reaching for your can of feminist repellent, replace it with the words chauvinistic society.

Replace the term liberation from oppression with a move towards a less sexist society.

Exactly the same concept, just different wording.

So women in the 70s all independently decided they liked hairy muffs, then a while later they decided independently but together hmm to shave it all off?
It hasn't occurred to you that maybe people hear others talking about something and independently think "I wonder what that's like, I might try it"? You know like if someone says "I really like jammie dodgers" and you've never tried one before but you buy some & become addicted - are you going to pretend that's societal influence too?!

Not sure that would result in people starting to think that Viscounts are unclean or being ashamed to offer the midwife a Bourbon......

Exactly, Bertrand. If body hair was purely free choice, people would have about as much opinion on someone else's choice, as they do with whether they choose to wear a navy or grey coat.

Nikephorus that is societal influence, lol. The hair removal didn't start through word of mouth between friends

LorLorr2 Not in the sense that it's being claimed it's not. They're claiming that women feel obliged to remove hair, I'm saying women have been shown alternatives & have decided for themselves. It makes no odds whether it's word of mouth through friends or from an article in a magazine or whatever - it's women realising they have options and choosing to go with them. That's not to say there aren't some lemmings around - Mumsnet proves that!

Nike- why then are women ever worried or ashamed of their pubic hair? Why do they feel the need to apologise to HCPs for it?

And why do the newspapers shame women for having underarm and leg hair? Or if not shame, feel the need to point it out as if it is odd.

Nike I remove the hair from my lower legs and armpits if they will be visible to the public.
I do it out of embarrassment. Some fucking choice

I agree that for a lot of women hair removal is due to societal pressures.
However, I don't find it hard to believe that some women just don't like having hair for whatever reasons.

There is no doubt a societal stigma against women who don't shave, but that's not to say all women buy into it, so for your friend to say that you, personally, only shave because of society is wrong.

I fully admit i shave my legs due to societal pressure! My underarms - because I sweat a lot and being smooth helps keep the stink at bay. My 4 year old DD showed me growing hair on her legs and told me she didn't like it. I have no idea where this had come from! We Have never discussed it and she's never seen me shave mine and as I usually wear trousers I don't think she'll have noticed my habits. She just doesn't like it!

Pilgit

Your daughter is probably soaking up the prevailing hairless trend....it is everywhere, in the media and has little to do with what she has learned from you.

Pilgrit, my dd1 at the age of 4 wanted to have blonde hair because all the 'proper' Barbie Dolls had blonde hair. Then dd2 at approximately the same age but with blonde hair found a picture of herself and coloured her hair black. When I asked her why, she said that it was because girls with blonde hair are dumb. I've never liked that phrase, so she certainly never got it from me - it never fails to surprise/horrify me quite how much all 4 of my kids are influenced by everything around them.

She is right to point out that it is a sexist culture that makes women feel they have to shave. Do you think men are dirty for not shaving their legs or underarms? I would argue, however, that a true feminist would be working towards choice for women, and men, rather than insisting you shouldn't be doing it.

Haven't RTFT but in my opinion, feminism to me means freedom of choice. I'm a woman. I prefer to keep hair free (legs and pits and try to keep the old bush neat) because that's my personal choice. I also wouldn't judge other women for choosing not to be hair free... surely that's the point? My body, my choice?
Also, don't give a monkey's about being 'neat' for HCPs. Having first baby in November and I'm not bloody trimming my pubes for that. Got more important things to worry about

Why is it so difficult to talk about what happens to women as a class within society without making individual women feel criticised? It's a real problem- it shuts down really important discussions.

I think it's really funny when people keep mentioning freedom of choice....indoctrination rarely allows for freedom of choice.

Removing body hair is more unhygienic and it is patriarchy that is responsible for implanting the idea that women having body hair is 'unclean'. So, I agree with whoever it was who said the patriarchy has implanted this idea of cleanness in your mind.

That said it's nobody else's place to have an opinion on how you organise your body hair. I am aware that there are various spurious and patriarchal ideas about how women should look, often to the detriment of women, sometimes I remove some body hair if I want to, sometimes I CBA.

It's that really it is in womens' collective and individual interests to understand how patriarchy actually affects our everyday lives. I suspect this is what this person was getting at rather than saying you need to be hairy to be a proper feminist.

Play

Whether people agree with you or not is irrelevant.
You feel dirty so you remove it.
Feminism isn't about keeping the hair Its about being able to have and make the choice to remove or to keep

Feminism isn't about freedom of choice per se though...

It's about being particularly interested in women's equality with men.

To that end it is important to understand how sexism detrimentally affects women's lives and their choices.

In reality no-one really ever has true 'freedom of choice'. We are all socialised into the culture of the area in which we live.

The above applies to everything from body hair to hijabs.

You might choose to be hairless or wear a hijab but those choices are influenced by your culture and the feminist part is not saying 'you shouldn't remove hair/cover your hair, that's not feminist enough' it is simply saying it's in women's interests to understand how sexism effects culture.

I don't agree that there's a feminist uniform - hairy, not hairy, up to you. I thought that feminism strives to allow women to be treated equally and make their own choices?

It looks nicer and feels cleaner because we have been socialised as women to find being hair free/less hairy nicer and cleaner.

Your friend is absolutely right but she's wrong to talk to you like that. Feminism is the only movement which is held to such high standards (surprise!) with the expectation that every feminist will live in a vacuum and be perfect.

I am a feminist and remove body hair and have my brows threaded. What other women do is their business.

Roxane Gay wrote a brilliant book called Bad Feminist. I've been much more comfortable with some of my choices since reading it.

I have blonde leg that shows through black tights. I chose to shave my legs because I didn't like the way it looked. I don't shave that often. Definitely nothing to do with society or my dh. He genuinely doesn't care (although I suspect he likes shaved armpits). Some so-called feminists like to believe that belittling women who shave makes them better feminists.

What you then choose to do with said knowledge is often neither here nor there (though it can influence the choices of others within your culture).

"I thought that feminism strives to allow women to be treated equally and make their own choices"

Can I ask if you've read any of the rest of the thread?