To be annoyed at this feminist

[PlayOnWurtz]

I happily call myself a feminist and will enter into discussions about it freely in real life and online. I got into one conversation about appearance and politics and how you rationalise body hair removal with feminism. I said I simply feel unclean, it's nothing to do with politics or being oppressed if I don't remove armpit and leg hair I feel like I need a wash.

Cue me being told that I clearly missed the memo on western socialization and oppression and that me removing body hair to feel clean wouldn't happen if I hadn't been socialised to feel this way erm no love I feel like I need a ruddy good wash if I don't shave I'm not oppressed....

AIBU to be annoyed and more than a bit

"Women bashing other Women because they shave their bodies is not feminism"

I agree. Good thing that's not what's happening on this thread, isn't it?

but women making insulting sarcastic comments about other women based on lazy stereotypes about feminists being 'those women' are fine

Actually most men 30 and under at the very least trim their public hair, a lot just get rid of all of it.

You may 'gently suggest' that I read the thread Bertrand and I may not so gently request that you bog off a patronise someone else, thanks. I was replying to the OP nowt to do with you.

I don't think it's as simple as societal conditioning. I have PCOS and loads of dark body hair. I also find underarm hair itchy and uncomfortable and it makes me sweat more and I already have problems in that dept. I could probably cope with lower leg hair but there is no way I could swan around in a swimsuit with pubic hair halfway down my legs. It just looks awful. I don't think there is anywhere where that would be attractive. However my friend who was normally hairy but had fair hair didn't shave for years and she looked lovely.
Also, I much prefer men with a shaven face and no chest hair. Other ladies love a beardy man with loads of chest hair.
It's more complicated than just conditioning there is personal preference and comfort and issues related to health conditions and so on and so on. Like most things it isn't black and white.
Agree though that women should not berate other women for the choices they make over their own bodies. Not helpful.

A woman with pubes hanging out at a swimming pool would be a thing of ridicule and wonder. Please don't pretend otherwise.

I could probably cope with lower leg hair but there is no way I could swan around in a swimsuit with pubic hair halfway down my legs. It just looks awful.

I am making a stab in the dark that you are not a man

This kind of negates your whole post

If you really have pcos then surely you should understand what I am trying to say. Do you sprout hair on your face?

We get irate about leg and muff hair on women, so ffs,what do you think society thinks about hair on a woman's face?

I take my pubes with me to the swimming pool...so far no one has died from seeing upper leg hair or armpit hair.

My DD (currently 6 yo) is so excited to be getting a little hair on her arms and legs....I feel so sad for her future discovery that this innocent feature of her body that she is now so proud of is actually despised by society as a whole.

Fuck the cosmetics industry and their never ending campaign to undermine peoples body image.

The idea that people are influenced by the culture they grew up in offends people who like to think of themselves as 'individuals' with 'freedom of choice'.

I think for Capitalism to continue It's also important for people to ignore that they are are easily manipulated by others for profit. If we 're ognised this surely we'd want more protection from this manipulation.

Also if we don't acknowledge how easily influenced people are then government doesn't have to take real responsibility for the effects of its policies.

I could probably cope with lower leg hair but there is no way I could swan around in a swimsuit with pubic hair halfway down my legs. It just looks awful.

This is social conditioning. I'm old enough to remember the late 70s and early 80s and women DID go swimming with bushy legs.

Yeah, and what about advertising campaigns that concern themselves with 'soft' underarm skin? Yeah, like you really need moisturiser under you arms... We are supposed to pay to block sweat glands up then pay to moisturise to stop the skin drying out? Saw us coming, didn't' they?

"You may 'gently suggest' that I read the thread Bertrand and I may not so gently request that you bog off a patronise someone else, thanks. I was replying to the OP nowt to do with you."

Fair enough. I bet you'd find the thread interesting, though.

Pre the high leg suits of the 80s, which my mother and I hated when they came in, legs on swim suits actually did not involve exposing copious amounts of bikini line hair. I like the sporty ones with little legs you can get. Underarms still are an issue of impending ridicule though. I remember as a young teen thinking my mother was quite rude & just fussing insisting I shaved to wear a sleeveless top & giving me a disposable razor. I had already being out to the village shops. I didn't remember anyone noticing. But then again the fuss the British media made when Nina, of 99 Red Balloons fame, appeared at a concert in Germany with hairy underarms, (where underarm hair on women was the norm), I'm not surprised . My mother went to Catholic school in the 59s and 60s, then no stockings and sleeveless tops were considered uncouth. I wonder if this was for the same reasons but at least hair removal wasn't added into the mix.

appeared at a concert in Germany with hairy underarms, (where underarm hair on women was the norm)

Gosh, yes I remember that too.

All that chat about girls 'on the continent', who never shaved.

I can remember my brother thinking it was hot!

Pubic hair isnt the same as leg hair

Im getting a bit confused (it is early)

I dont want people to see my pubic hair when swimming, i dont mind them seeing my leg hair

My mother certainly wouldnt have gone swimming with her pubic hair hanging out

Rufustherenegadereindeer1

I'm wondering if that's what started it. Swimsuits used to be fairly 'all-covering' in the bikini line department. Those little skirts that were attached!

Perhaps when bikinis became a thing, the hairs were under the spotlight, so to speak.

Yes would agree with that datun

When i was a teenager and up to about 29 i liked the swimsuits with the little legs, almost a 1930's style

When i was skinny it looked good, now im fat it looks like im trying to hide something

But that covered everything....

When i was a teenager and up to about 29 i liked the swimsuits with the little legs, almost a 1930's style

Yes! They had a renaissance when I was younger too. All part and parcel of the burgeoning aerobics/Jane Fonda thing. Swiftly followed by 'cycling shorts' as a fashion item.

They looked athletic and outdoorsy.

offred

I said high wedges not high heels. Thanks for your advice but as a nursing sister and over 50 I do know what hurts my back and what doesn't you know. Flat shoes are a killer for my back and I used to wear wedges for work on consultant advice.

I think there's a massive amount of projection that goes on when feminists discuss issues like this.

Lots of people are simply not that used to examining ideas, habits, practices etc., as a thing in they're own right, worthy of examining dispassionately.

So when feminists do it, it's often perceived as an individual criticism of other women. When of course, it's nothing of the sort, it's an honest attempt to try and tease out all the interesting variables of why people do stuff.

But lots of people may suspect deep down, that their dearly-held individual choice, may shock horror, be influenced by the culture around them. Instead of accepting this as normal and human, as others have said, they feel ashamed of it, because the media is telling us all the time, that we are individuals in a vacuum and all our attitudes, decisions, choices etc., are made in that vacuum with no reference to anything else.

If you never question that idea, if you honestly believe that you make all your choices in that individual vacuum, `when someone suggests to you that you don't, this will upset you because

a) you feel you should be making all these choices in a vacuum and if you don't, then that means you're stupid and weak-minded and brainwashed

and

b) because you believe that shit, you will then perceive this person telling you your choices are influenced by stuff outside your imaginary vacuum, as in fact, telling you that you're stupid and weak-minded and brainwashed. This is projection on your part, because no-one intelligent thinks it's stupid and weak-minded and brainwashed to be influenced by the world and society you live in. They think it's normal and human.

In short, feminists saying that people are normal and human, is deeply offensive to many people.

We have been conditioned to think if we don't shave we are unattractive and unclean. Tbh though those who are the supposed oppressors would probably shag a lady clean shaven or not...if they aren't fussy why are we?

What we need Angelreid is probably a more nuanced discussion as to who the oppressors are and how oppression works.

Incidentally, where I grew up, almost all men were clean-shaven: beards was something one associated with down-and-outs, the alcoholics sitting around in the park. An elderly relative of mine lived alone in the woods and was an obsessive hoarder and generally a worry to his family: I know they were particularly aghast at the fact that he grew a long Victorian-style beard.

In consequence I grew up with a strong undefined feeling that beards were dirty and socially suspect, a sign that you had let yourself go. It was quite a shock to come to this country and find that pillars of the community- headmasters, police officers, bank managers- sported beards.

That is how social conditioning works. There is nothing inherently unhygienic about a nicely kept beard. Doesn't suit everyone and not everyone is going to want one. Nor is everyone going to want hairy legs. But the fact that people feel dirty if they have then or even don't want to look at other people's hairy legs is social conditioning.