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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Smoking vs Vaping

159 replies

Ttbb · 25/08/2017 11:39

AIBU to find gaping more annoying than smoking? I know that a lot of people use it to quit smoking but then they just see to get hooked on vaping instead. On top of it they seem less ashamed than smokers when walking around blowing clouds of vapor all over the place. I find both habits disgusting and antisocial but most people seem to dislike smoking more. Am I the only one?

OP posts:
IWouldLikeToSeeTheseMangoes · 01/09/2017 19:44

Don't forget ostentatious waving of hand in front of face

Grinforgot that one Geillis and U2 Grin

IWouldLikeToSeeTheseMangoes · 01/09/2017 19:46

i hate Sue on reception. Making me breathe in her clouds of black opium perfume. Controlling cow.

😂😂 that bitch!

Jaxhog · 01/09/2017 19:55

I hate cigarette smoke. I hate being obliged to breathe it and I hate the smell of stale smoke on other people's clothes. I don't particularly like strong perfume either. My problem with vaping is that a lot of people do the 'at least it isn't smoking' self righteous thing. It still smells horrible to me. I'm also seeing it done where smoking is banned e.g. planes, trains etc. - where vaping is also banned.

IWouldLikeToSeeTheseMangoes · 01/09/2017 20:17

Maybe the simplest solution is if the government could introduce some sort of legislation where public areas just have a general 'no smells or chemicals allowed' zone. To enter it you would of course have to go through an industrial car wash style cleaner in order to prove that you are pure enough to enter the '100% clean air space.'

Titanz · 01/09/2017 20:19

My problem with vaping is that a lot of people do the 'at least it isn't smoking' self righteous thing

Sorry but how is it self righteous? It is safer than smoking. No one is saying it's completely safe, nothing ever is, but it is a far cry from all the harmful things in cigs.

goose1964 · 01/09/2017 20:28

I'd never seen anyone vaping until I went to Manchester, in Bristol (ish) you rarely see it , and only occasionally anyone smoking, suspect it's going on behind closed doors

Sallystyle · 01/09/2017 20:31

Those self righteous people who speak the truth. They shouldn't say 'at least it isn't smoking'. So smug.

Probably controlling too.

IWouldLikeToSeeTheseMangoes · 01/09/2017 20:52

Hopefully they are self flagellating themselves nightly U2. What a nerve saying that it's healthier than smoking when that's factually true.

PencilsInSpace · 01/09/2017 21:15

It may be in a reputable journal, that doesn't make it a reputable study.

The authors state that the damage to gum cells is due to the flavourings in ecigs, yet they don't use a flavourless eliquid control. Reading through it appears they believe the tobacco flavour is unflavoured!

On a very very basic level this study does not show what it claims. In the press release we get “We learned that the flavorings–some more than others--made the damage to the cells even worse,”

No they really didn't learn that because there was no unflavoured control.

Neither do the authors mention the fact that the flavourings in eliquid are all food flavourings. One of the flavours used is menthol ffs! Nobody suck peppermints!

They use a very old fashioned device and push it quite hard on a machine made to replicate smoking, not vaping. They are likely to be burning the atomiser and producing dry hits, as we have seen in previous useless studies, also published in reputable journals.

Throughout the study, the authors confuse and conflate vaping and smoking, for example:

'Electronic-cigarettes (e-cigs) represent a significant and increasing proportion of tobacco product consumption' - eliquid contains no tobacco, they are not a tobacco product any more than NRT is.

e-cig aerosols compared to conventional cigarette smoke - this study does not compare the two.

Conventional cigarette smoke has been shown to cause deleterious effects on oral and periodontal health [10]. However, the role of e-cig vaping and its association with carbonyl stress, inflammation, and DNA damage-triggered senescence on oral/periodontal epithelium remains unknown. - what thought process went into even comparing the two when the only thing they have in common really is nicotine content?

We have recently shown oxidants/ROS reactivity from e-cig aerosols is comparable to conventional cigarette smoke - yeah they burnt the atomisers that time too.

and from the press release: We showed that when the vapors from an e-cigarette are burned - possibly not inaccurate given their methodology

and How much and how often someone is smoking e-cigarettes will determine the extent of damage to the gums and oral cavity

There's a big para in the introduction of the study about the harms of smoking on gum health. The authors conclude, This most likely occurs as a result of the vasoconstrictive effect of nicotine (nicotine is the main component in e-cigs) on gingival blood vessels.

This is total bollocks, as anyone with gum disease who has quit smoking using either ecigs or oral NRT knows - as soon as you stop smoking your gums bleed like a stuck pig. As far as I can tell, as a well-informed lay-person, the masking effect of smoking on gum disease is because the constituents of smoke kill off your peripheral blood capillaries and once you stop they start regenerating. Nicotine is a vasoconstricter but it has that effect acutely and not chronically. Its effects are remarkably similar to caffeine in this regard.

The other control not used in this experiment is a comparison with the effects of smoking (this is different from the confusion and conflation I talked about above). We know that vapers are almost all still smoking or ex-smokers so it would have been useful to see how these results compared with the harm from smoking. There is nothing in this study that provides a useful comparison. Instead, we have something like 'we know smoking makes your teeth fall out, we've done a study on ecigs and ...'

may pose an oral health concern
may contribute to the pathogenesis of oral diseases

Well how much of a concern? How much does it contribute? Compared to what? Alarmingly, this bobbins gets reported in the mainstream press as Electronic cigarettes are as equally damaging to gums and teeth as conventional cigarettes with no evidence to back that up at all.

Personally I don't give a fuck about some cell study that maybe shows some sort of harm to gums on the possible level of minty NRT lozenges. I'm more concerned about my lungs and heart. I've already smoked my teeth out and am looking forward to my nice plastic set I'm treating myself to for my 50th. I am unlikely to die a decade early from plastic teeth Smile

Smashing to talk with you again though, theymademejoin, although I have to say I've lost a lot of respect for you for plugging this study which is so shockingly bad even I as a layperson can see it. I thought you were an actual scientist. Clearly not if you can't see the glaring holes in this study.

They are advocating vaping as an alternative to smoking tobacco as there are no longitudinal studies done yet and the current research suggests vaping is less damaging to smokers than tobacco, and that is cheaper to the public purse.

People being healthier costs the public purse less shocker! (actually it doesn't but that's another thread). I don't give a shit really if PH don't care about me personally. They didn't invent vaping, vapers did. They took a long time to come round to idea that there are PH wins to be had from endorsing vaping.

I don't have the time or energy to get into another argument with you about the PHE report. We've done that here if anybody wants to read a sad spiralling debate which ended with a lot of nitpicking about the exact meaning of the word 'endorse'.

Off on hols for a week now so won't be back.

RainbowPastel · 01/09/2017 21:27

I hate them both equally. We were at a theme park this week loads of people puffing away with clouds of vapour everywhere. Whilst queueing for one ride a family were in front of us and all 5 were vaping. My eyes were streaming from it and the smell is vile.

Polter · 01/09/2017 21:44

Thanks for articulating that Plenty and have a lovely holiday.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 01/09/2017 21:48

err no, believe it or not, some people just don't like other people vaping around them

I do believe you, really I do, but here's the point: since, unlike smoking, there's no reputable research which demonstrates any significant harm to vapers (far less to bystanders) it really does come down to some simply not liking it. This is why I compared it with other things folk dislike, but without feeling a controlling urge to demand they shouldn't happen around them

FWIW I do accept that long term studies obviously haven't yet been possible, but that applies to every other new thing,and I don't recall the same reactions breaking out over much else

So yes, I stick by my view that, in lieu of other things they feel unable to complain about, some have found an "issue" they can vent their frustrations on with relative impunity - and by heck they'll use it

Puzzledandpissedoff · 01/09/2017 21:54

I am unlikely to die a decade early from plastic teeth Smile

I wouldn't bet on it, Pencils Grin See below the comments from some silly website, which incidentally also has an obvious commercial interest in what they're claiming

purecuretechnology.com/denture-health.html

Hope you have a lovely holiday, BTW Flowers

Dreams16 · 01/09/2017 22:10

I don't smoke my husband vapes and I much prefer him do that than smoke a cig any day and to be fair they smell better.

PencilsInSpace · 01/09/2017 22:44

Pencil is pushing the research by the British public health group

Can I just ask, theymademejoin - The way you phrase this suggests you are not in the UK. Where are you based?

Do you have a specific research interest in ecigs, tobacco control or public health? If it's not too outing would you mind expanding on why you are interested in the health effects of vaping?

For full discosure, my personal interests in this discussion are:

  • started smoking age 12
  • inability to quit despite numerous attempts over several decades
  • watched sister and mum develop severe COPD in middle age
  • could see my own future going the same way
  • few teeth left
  • finally quit thanks to vaping in mid 40's
  • massively improved health since then
  • total joy watching people I know and care about also quit by vaping and watching the improvement in their health
  • Disgust at what passes for research in this field
  • disgust at some researchers and policy makers in this field making it all about them and their big war on big tobacco when it is screamingly obvious people like me are simply collateral damage.

Why should we give a shit what you think? You don't give a shit what we think, yet it is our lives at stake, not yours.

Where are you coming from? What are the relationships between how you earn your living and the posts you write on MN about vaping?

PencilsInSpace · 01/09/2017 22:46

Thank you Polter and Puzzled, I intend to have a lovely holiday and ignore the internet for a whole week Grin

cantthinkofabloodyname · 01/09/2017 23:22

@Esssa I vape for exactly the same reasons. I still feel really self conscious about doing it though.

Esssa · 01/09/2017 23:39

Sorry you find it necessary too cantthink. I have added stress of not letting the in-laws know as they are staunch anti smoking and obviously vaping gets lumped in together with smoking. OH isn't fond either tho never saw me at my worst health wise which is when I took it up. He's asked I don't do it in his house or in front of his parents which is fair enough. Could be tricky when we stay with them at Christmas and is a bit of a pain when I'm having to go outside to vape when the cold makes my pain worse. I'm kind of having to liken my use of the vape as similar to using gas and air. It's a new comparison so it may need some work!

Titanz · 01/09/2017 23:40

pencils I'm giving you a slow clap

7Days · 01/09/2017 23:56

Good start Titans. And....?

Titanz · 01/09/2017 23:58

I dunno, do you want me to cheer too?

Voice0fReason · 01/09/2017 23:59

the heat from the steam will inevitably cause a few gene mutations
STEP BACK FROM THE KETTLE!!!
Cold showers from now on then. Grin

salsmum · 02/09/2017 00:16

I have just returned from the USA where they have smoking designated areas but then in Vegas they were smoking cannabis wherever the mood took them in the street openly as a smoker I objected to the hypocrisy. Confused

7Days · 02/09/2017 00:28

If you had an argument, you'd make it surely, Titanz

Titanz · 02/09/2017 00:31

7 I already have in this thread. Wasn't aware I'm not allowed to agree with posts too Hmm. Is there anything in particular you'd like to ask?