To not discipline DS for shouting at an adult

[riverotter]

DS(10) is normally quiet and quite polite. However, he can explode a bit if pushed.

He was at a friend's house last night and I picked him up at just after 8. The mum seemed a bit quiet and this morning she sent a text asking if we could talk so I called her.

Her version is that DS shouted and slammed a glass down on the table and it made everybody feel very uncomfortable. Obviously I asked what brought it on and she said it was because her mum, so his friend's grandma, had offered DS a sandwich!

So I spoke to DS. He started crying and said he did but he didn't really like any of them so kept saying no thank you, no thank you. But apparently the gran kept saying go on, have one, they are nice, I've been making these all afternoon. He said she was waving one in his face when he shouted 'no, I said no.' (I actually taught him that phrase a while back.)

So - discipline or not? I'm not sure how to deal with this. I hate rudeness but I hate people who won't say no for an answer as well.

Some points from the OP since people are still arguing about it

-his outburst happened 4 or 5 times

• she said they were not violent
• she does worry about him being a bit volatile and plans to work on it
• she was NOT happy with the glass slamming

-she was impressed with him standing up for himself and using the words she taught him not his actions -once again she does worry about him,his future etc.

• the kid himself said " i was worried if i ate one ,she would've made me eat more". So he actually did have a think about possible actions and what they would mean. He chose the wrong action,he's 10. But even for a second he did consider having one to please the woman. That is not a abuser in the making.

And last but not least the most important one

DS says she said "here, have a sandwich." He said no thank you. She said "ah go on, they are nice." DS said no thank you. She said "here, there is a nice ham and tomato" (other kids choroused in saying DS is veggie) she then said "well there is cheese or egg, have one of them." DS said no thank you. She said "ah I have been making these all afternoon, have one!" DS said no thank you. She put one in front of his face and said here have just this one. DS was having a drink, slammed it down and shouted "I said no!"*
*

Still over-analysing a simple incident that probably happens every fucking day? And probably didn't happen as described...

So basically the child should offer to apologize to granny for setting his glass down firmly and raising his voice, on condition that she apologize to him for not respecting his boundaries, not accepting that no means no, and for waving food in his face.

Good exercise in diplomacy all around.

The mother was nuts to call you about such a minor thing in the first place!

Maybe it didn't happen like the 10yr old said and that she doesn't like rude children

I am not equating a 10 year old with an abusive adult male.
I am suggesting that everyone starts somewhere and that it is important to give him tools to deal with (perfectly natural) feelings such as anger, frustration, annoyance, fear and panic so that he will not continue with his habit of communicating by means of dramatic gestures. The gestures are the easy way out and can be a very tempting shortcut as a child gets taller, and his voice gets deeper.

melj You are extrapolating your experience with an abusive ex and painting any pre-teen boy who isn't in total control of his emotions at all times as a potential abuser.
I know how my exH got started.
He was inclined to 'explode a bit when pushed' as a child. His family thought it was great that he could know his own mind so well, didn't suffer fools gladly, etc. Then it wasn't so funny when he was a strapping teen and was hard to approach if he was in a mood because someone overtook him when he was out driving, or he took exception to something his summer job boss wanted him to do, and his response was to curse him out, walk off the job, and punch holes in his bedroom walls.

I taught my DS a different set of responses - not to take things personally, to see problems as opportunities for problem solving, to respect himself and trust others to be reasonable, above all not to make excuses for himself if he fell short of expectations and to accept the perceptions of others as to how his actions came across. It was a lesson that took place over the course of many years.

A child is allowed to be angry. He is not allowed to slam a glass on a table and shout. That is not hard for a 10 year old to understand.
If he understands that what he did and said may have come across in a different way from how he intended, then he could consider apologising. It is always a good thing to point out that other people have perceptions and feelings and to ask that a 10 year old be mindful of that is not unrealistic. It is not unrealistic for a 5 year old.

Any apology should be sincere and based on a genuine understanding of what he did, though. Otherwise people are asking that he jump through hoops for appearance sake just as he might have been expected to nibble at an unwanted sandwich thirty years ago.

There are a few approaches that can cover many situations - one is to ask yourself 'what is the worst thing that could happen here?' if (a) I do the thing, or (b) I refuse to do the thing. This helps to give a child confidence to handle the situation - he realises that a person in a situation like this only has persuasion in her arsenal and 'no, thank you' can indeed go on until she wearies of it. He has to trust this.

The other approach is to find a way to help her back down if she is not able to back down herself - hence 'They look lovely, but I am afraid I have been so greedy I can't fit another bite' or words to that effect. It is up to her to take the offer of a compliment and back down. Yes, she could be very persistent even so, but keeping on repeating will eventually cause it to end. The child is being asked to do some work that should not be necessary, but it will help him grow up.

If a child tends to explode, it behooves parents to try to anticipate situations that might come up, maybe by looking back at explosions of the past. They could also ask the DS if he can think of any situations that might cause him anxiety.

The fault here is not the refusing of the sandwich but the "I said NO" outburst and banging of the glass which is rude

When I worked in a customer facing job we were told to deal with persistent customers by repeating a variation of the same phrase to each complaint or argument. Your son might be better learning to use this than exploding in anger which, as others have said, will become even more inappropriate and unwelcome as he grows up
For example in this case he could say:
No thank you
No thank you, I have had enough
No thank you, I have already had quiche, crisps and salad
No thank you, I don't eat ham
...and so on
Adding the extra bit to the no thank you makes it seem less abrupt but the repetition makes it assertive enough.

Math. Why is it the child's responsibility to "help" the adult understand she is being rude?

The adult is the one who is supposed to teach the child, all this woman is teaching the child is that no matter how many times he gives the same answer, unless it's the one she wants to hear she is going to keep pushing him to change his mind.

Surely it is better to teach our children to be forceful (but not aggressive or combative) in enforcing their boundaries when someone tries to bully/cajole/encourage/badger them into doing something they have already said they don't want to do?

No means no regardless of who is asking or where they are.

Child refuses sandwich, mumsnet implodes.

The fault here is not the refusing of the sandwich but the "I said NO" outburst and banging of the glass which is rude

which was the fault of the person insisting after he said no thank you multiple times.

How are people not getting this?

Going to go against the grain and say I want to defend the ds. It wasn't a great situation all around. As a child who was pretty much force fed I sympathise with how cornered he felt. He doesn't sound arrogant if he burst into tears over it just deeply uncomfortable.

What grain? Half of us are on the kids side the others are too busy making sandwiches to throw at us

This still going? Good grief.

I think most all of us are on the kid's side. Some of us just may have a different view of what that means.

Apparently to some it means calling him a nascent abusive man and a nasty brat.

Would you think a girl should continue to politely said 'no' in the face of a persistent man? I think you are taking the fact that this was a male reacting to a female to an extreme.

The sex of the child and the grandparent is immaterial. What matters here is that the boy did not trust that one sandwich would be it as far as the granny was concerned. He panicked. He catastrophised.

He needs to try to express why he felt he would end up having to eat more than one. Was that a reasonable expectation on his part? What evidence one way or the other was there (that she would or would not have pressed him further)?

He needs to try to express why he did not feel that persisting until she gave up would be the way to go. Why did he expect the worst from this other person?

The situation was not a girl expected to be polite to a man who wanted her to accompany him alone to the garden shed. If a boy was in the same situation with an older man pressing him to do something against his instincts, then of course he and the hypothetical girl should both be able to say a very adamant NO, and they should both be able to tell a host that they wished to go home.

How did the child in his friend's home decide that what happened with the sandwiches was a fight or flight situation akin to the molestation/gut instinct scenario?

every time he has done something similar it is when he feels backed into a.corner
Was this feeling warranted in the other circumstances?
If not, why is he misreading situations?
Have there been situations where he really was backed into a corner (i.e. under threat)?
If no threat was present, why did he feel he was backed into a corner?

There isn't really any intermediate between lovely quiet DS which he mostly is and exploding DS.
DS needs to be taught to recognise and communicate the fact that his frustration is building up. Unless he has an emotional disorder, he has a buildup to each explosion, and all concerned need to figure out what that looks and feels like.

you don't always know what will stress him out until he explodes
Somebody needs to ask questions and listen hard here, and to require him to be aware of his own triggers - and he needs to be taught ways of assessing situations correctly and staying calm.

He honestly is a lovely boy but he just struggles when on the spot and frustrated and if they are combined then explosions happen
He needs tools to self regulate and also to fill the gap between politeness and the nuclear option.

DS is an intriguing character. He is intelligent and thoughtful but also stubborn and intense at times
He would be able to learn. Don't leave this until he gets a taste for the shortcut (displays of temper). Harness the stubbornness; add charm and confidence. Nothing wrong with intensity - harness it to enable him to focus on positive activity like academic work or sport or music or art, and he will be fine.

notever I am not suggesting that the grandmother was not wrong but I am saying two wrongs don't make a right. Although the child felt put on the spot and harassed it seems that others saw his reaction as out of proportion so he needs to learn from that.
In life we learn that we cannot control how others behave, we can only control how we behave and shouting and banging glasses is never going to be endearing

notever Apparently to some it means calling him a nascent abusive man and a nasty brat.
It also means calling him a liar, MN's go to response when a child is involved.
Thanks derxa for proving a previous point I made.

As girls we were brought up to feel we must keep other people happy and never give offence.

I think there is a danger of trying to bring up our children in the same way.

Yes, one of our tasks is help children understand social norms and to be able to develop friendships.

But I don't think it is our job to help them become docile, compliant, endearing 'objects'.

I think it is inevitable that at times our children will encounter adults whose expectations of them aren't reasonable. And a good parent will step in a way that does not make the child feel ashamed when it is the other adults who have made her or him feel awkward and upset.

Granny needs to learn Boone wants her shit sandwiches.
'Ive been making these all day' Are you feeding the 5,000? Maybe spend 10 minutes making sandwiches, then you won't need to shove them down kids throats

*no one

Ivor When I worked in a customer facing job we were told to deal with persistent customers by repeating a variation of the same phrase to each complaint or argument

Little feedback here. This is what gets customers' backs up. Repeatedly saying the same thing and ignoring/not addressing the complaint. Different variations on the same theme. So one of two things happen you lose it with the customer service person who's only doing their job or you give up. I find not being listened to as a customer the height of rudeness

Thanks derxa for proving a previous point I made.

riverotter - you sound lovely as does you DS. Ignore this one off incident - it's not a big deal - it's not a sign that you're doing a bad job with him. If related incidents happen regularly, then maybe start to consider it more carefully.

When I worked in a customer facing job we were told to deal with persistent customers by repeating a variation of the same phrase to each complaint or argument

Yes I was taught this too - the cracked record approach. However, if I were a customer, I'd know that I was having a technique used on me and I'd probably get more annoyed! However, I think this approach is only used with customers who are making unrealistic demands so they are not going to get what they want regardless.