To not discipline DS for shouting at an adult

[riverotter]

DS(10) is normally quiet and quite polite. However, he can explode a bit if pushed.

He was at a friend's house last night and I picked him up at just after 8. The mum seemed a bit quiet and this morning she sent a text asking if we could talk so I called her.

Her version is that DS shouted and slammed a glass down on the table and it made everybody feel very uncomfortable. Obviously I asked what brought it on and she said it was because her mum, so his friend's grandma, had offered DS a sandwich!

So I spoke to DS. He started crying and said he did but he didn't really like any of them so kept saying no thank you, no thank you. But apparently the gran kept saying go on, have one, they are nice, I've been making these all afternoon. He said she was waving one in his face when he shouted 'no, I said no.' (I actually taught him that phrase a while back.)

So - discipline or not? I'm not sure how to deal with this. I hate rudeness but I hate people who won't say no for an answer as well.

Well, she was very sternly told off by Mr. Knightly. "It was badly done, indeed!"

End of the line ?

your child needs to learn to deal with all sorts of people.
This is the difference between a polite well raised child and one that hasn't had the world explained to them.
It is normal that he reacted like this but as long as you pull him up on it and describe how to deal with persistant people (in this case walk away/go to the loo/call mum) he will be better equipped in the future.
Otherwise this behaviour would get an adult fired.

Melj I'm also still waiting for all the people on this thread who have said the child should just keep saying "No thank you" ad nauseum to quantify the number of times you have to say it before you are allowed to get frustrated that you are being ignored, and whether or not that number is different based on whether it's two adults talking or an adult and a child

Until it becomes absurd and the granny stops. And there is nothing wrong with saying, 'Please - stop badgering me', or, 'Please let's stop this,' if she keeps on with the badgering. A child can name what is going on without shouting or accusing.

The feeling that you have to slam a glass on the table to put a stop to it comes from panic that something is going to happen that you don't want unless you take drastic action, plus a buildup of frustration that is avoidable. There is no need for that panic. This was a relatively minor scene that played out, not a fight or flight situation where there was an adversary armed with a bat demanding lunch money.

The child is allowed to get frustrated. Nobody expects an automaton. He should be equipped with the skills to help him retain control, avoid panic, and assert himself. You can be frustrated and still keep your head and come out on top.

It is a problem that the only responses the child had were good manners or going nuclear. There is a middle ground where the child ups his communication game. He needs to be taught to seize that territory.

Hetero
it's absolutely a great idea for the OP to work on these strategies with her ds now. But he's bloody 10 (you only need to go on the retail workers' threads on here to see how many grown adults lose it completely on a seemingly regular basis) and was being pushed probably beyond any pushing he's experienced before. Maybe he actually held out longer before his rather minor explosion than he has done in the past?

Those adults shouldn't be losing it on a regular basis. Something is not right there.
A parent really has to recognise that there is an issue when a child 'explodes a bit when pushed'.

The child's anxiety must be addressed. He needs to be given tools to recognise his own emotions and he needs rehearsal of appropriate phrases. He needs assurance that everyone feels upset/frustrated/annoyed/angry/panicky, and encouragement not to allow those feelings to overwhelm him.

He also needs an atmosphere at home where it's ok to make mistakes, one where there is give and take and negotiation where he sees people modeling stepping back and focusing on results where everyone benefits, one where everyone gets a bit of fun poked at them and everyone still stays friends.

He needs parents who are willing to sit him down and talk through responses on his part and to reveal their own responses to situations they encounter. He needs to see patient responses modeled. He needs to see his parents playing the long game, accepting that situations are beyond their control so they are going to shrug them off (by not commenting on others' driving, barging in queues, etc).

Maybe the parents are a bit inclined to panic themselves? Mutter about other drivers, curse at people who have parked badly, rant about people being careless or rude, or gossip critically about others?

The general atmosphere at home and the attitude towards mistakes of others and of the child can often have a lot to do with a child's tendency to jump off the deep end. It's a good thing to assess whether parents are giving the impression that lots of little things are the end of the world, and to try instead to not sweat the small stuff.

God some of the responses on here are awful! A ten year old is trapped at a table being offered food repeatedly. No thank you or just no doesn't work and it's becoming frustrating... and you lot all seem to think that the poor kid should do what even most adults would struggle to do and stay entirely serene and calm whilst continuing to say no thank you. For gods sake.

math I have read both your essays (had to come off the phone to do so!) and I think your expectations of a 10 year old not in their own home being badgered by that holy grail of womanhood, a grandmother, are well meaning but utterly unrealistic. They also do not mean they are going to grow up as per your XH. It's a completely different power imbalance, and I bet your response would have been different if the sexes were reversed. (I'll be honest, if you post another essay in response I'm not going to read it. You need to be more pithy in your replies!)

I personally wouldn't think this an acceptable way to behave in a normal social situation and would have a serious conversation with my son to help him to manage those kind of 'tricky' situations better in the future. Slamming glasses and rudeness is really not on in my view.

Conflating empowering a child to say 'no means no' in harmful or potentially inappropriate situations with the refusal of a sandwich from an over enthusiastic granny is odd in my view.

What I find interesting is how things have moved on. When I grew up it was pretty rude to refuse a hosts hospitality - you took a little of everything offered and did you best, including with the overcooked stewed greens... This applies to adult and child. I remember many an afternoon eating overly mushy strawberries pressed on me by my enthusiastic great grandmother. So refusing any sandwich would have been the height of rudeness let alone slamming glasses and shouting 😂 We also had a pretty ingrained respect for adults (surnames always etc) let alone grannies...

I've not reflected on it before but tbh I think I would still raise my children to accept hospitality as graciously as they can, although tbh I find most adults are nowadays far more aware and considerate of their guests varying tastes, especially the small ones... so hopefully the overcooked greens days are largely over!

I agree with math, essay and all.

The thing is , the child is only 10 years old and hasn't come across every eventuality in life yet . We all strive to teach our children good manners but sometimes a situation arises that we haven't anticipated and it's only after the event that we can correct or advise our children on how to handle a similar situation in the future.

Technically, going by some of the responses here, there should actually be no AIBU threads at all. A child of 10 apparently is supposed to the the paragon of virtue in the face of unwelcome behaviour. If we extend that demand of a 10 year old to actual adults then we can say:

Who actually gives a shit about anyones parking regardless of diagrams?
Who actually gives a shit about when a man is suppose to offer an engagement ring?
Who actually gives a shit about kids playing on a trampoline on a sunny weekend afternoon?

None of these matter. As adults we are suppose to not care because, as we are demanding of this child, life can be a bit of a downer but we shouldnt get any negative feelings about the bad behaviour shown to us by others.

Until it becomes absurd and the granny stops. And there is nothing wrong with saying, 'Please - stop badgering me', or, 'Please let's stop this,' if she keeps on with the badgering. A child can name what is going on without shouting or accusing.

But when does it become absurd to you? After being asked about three or four times, I'd say it was absurd of the granny to keep asking and I'd be starting to get more forceful with my "I have said no, do not ask me again" responses, but some people think that a child should just continue to say "No thank you" until the grandma gives up ... but if she's anything like my grandma she could have kept up the pressure for days if given the chance and not shut down asap!

Also I find that people don't take kindly to children being firm with them wrt their boundaries. If I say to another adult "Please stop badgering me" or "Please let's stop this" they will take my statement at face value and either we can have a discussion about how I am feeling badgered/disrespected (which is what is happening if someone is constantly and repeatedly ignoring your wishes) by their behaviour. If a child says it, I have found that a lot of adults take that as a personal affront, that a child dare speak to an adult as though they were equals instead of the adult being the one with the power.

So can we please stop offering "adult" responses for how a child should have responded in someone else's home, when a stranger cannot accept their decision and they have nobody there to support them. In their own home they'd have a parent/family member they could appeal to for help dealing with the situation, eg if it was my DD and someone was trying to insist she ate a sandwich, I'd go over and ask DD what she had eaten and if she was full, if she said yes then I'd tell the sandwich-pusher that as long as she had eaten something she didn't need to eat a sandwich, but perhaps little Johnny might like another one and if not feel free to offer them to the parents or take them back to the kitchen to be wrapped up as leftovers.

Well, she was very sternly told off by Mr. Knightly. "It was badly done, indeed!"

Had she been ten years old he would not have dreamt of saying any such thing.

Maybe the parents are a bit inclined to panic themselves? Mutter about other drivers, curse at people who have parked badly, rant about people being careless or rude, or gossip critically about others?

This made me lol because it covers about 80% of the content of MN, including this thread. How sweary does a response on MN have to be to count as the virtual equivalent of slamming a glass down? Or maybe it would count as about equivalent to a double exclamation mark or something.

Look at how many people are talking here. And we don't even know the people involved.

Carl - exactly. No cult involved (as a pp has suggested). Just what people are like (in my experience, anyway). Doesn't even have to be malicious.

melj, RiverTam and namechange -
I repeat, there is always a better way of communicating than slamming a glass on a table and shouting. The child needs to be taught effective verbal communication. Effective communication is not an 'adult' response.

This child explodes when pushed - it is a habit of his that will become even more effective as he grows, his voice changes, and he assumes the privilege that being a male entails in our society. This is what happened with my XH. He got past the point where anyone shorter than him felt they could correct him at age 14 or so. It takes a lot more effort to work at a problem verbally. It takes a sense of mutual respect, and it requires that you get a handle on your emotions. It is far easier to train a child to do and feel all of that than to try to get a teenager who has a three stone and twelve inch advantage over you to do it.

It is the opposite of unrealistic to expect that a 10 year old would hold his own against a well meaning granny or anyone else inclined not to take 'No thank you' for an answer. He needs to be rehearsed in the approach where he asks himself "what's the worst she will do if I keep on saying 'No thank you'?" The answer is that barring shoving the sandwich into his mouth, there is nothing she can do apart from sarcastic mutterings that make her look bad, while he otoh looks like a polite boy who was not being unreasonable, even if she were to be so manipulative that she would retire into the kitchen crying. Teaching him to take this 'overview' of situations will help him avoid the panic that causes the outburst.

This is a child who does not trust other people's responses enough to persist respectfully in getting the outcome that he wants from a situation. He needs to be taught by his parents how to trust and to have confidence that other people will also be trustworthy.

ScottishDiem
As adults we are supposed to not care because, as we are demanding of this child, life can be a bit of a downer but we shouldnt get any negative feelings about the bad behaviour shown to us by others.
It is perfectly acceptable to get negative feelings. Nobody expects an automaton.
However, it is not acceptable to act on those feeling, blow your top, shout, etc. You do not run down someone who cuts you off in traffic. You do not curse at people who are parked illegally. You do not take the oafishness as a personal affront to you. Other people's bad behaviour in public would happen whether you were present or not. It's not about you.

When faced with a situation that boils your piss, you model confident problem-solving to your children. If you do slip up and explode or say a few things you regret, you tell your children you are sorry for your behaviour, with no 'buts' attached. You could sit down and assess why you responded the way you did. You do not give yourself permission to behave badly.

You could let off steam on AIBU of course..

Isn't this what the fairy tale, 'Hansel and Gretel' is warning about? I can imagine the children having a right old laugh about the sandwich shoving granny and how she torments children for her own niceties.

I have to laugh at all the posters saying that when the child's rights were being ignored he should have reacted like a mature thoughtful adult but when the the Granny was rude she is allowed to act like an ignorant spoilt child because you know she only wanted to see the joy on the little boy face when he ate the food she had spent hours making despite her arthritic hands and dementia.

Back in the day when 'our' generation did what we were told, ate what we where given puked it back up and respected our elders because that is what being polite means. Well we are now finding to how many of those children were abused by adults and I wonder if they could have protected themselves by loudly standing up for their rights to not do something, just because an adult persisted they do it over and over again, it was only polite.

I also wonder if women would have had equal pay sooner if so many of them weren't taught to shut up, do what your told and be polite even if it upsets you.

Learning how to behave is a progressive process . It's impossible to teach a child how to deal with every situation all in one go. He got it wrong in this case because he probably hasn't been confronted with this sort of behaviour before and therefore his parents haven't had the opportunity to teach him how to deal with it .

How many adults come on MN and ask how they should respond to remarks or awkward situations? Loads and loads.

This child explodes when pushed - it is a habit of his that will become even more effective as he grows, his voice changes, and he assumes the privilege that being a male entails in our society.

I'm sorry but that is a load of bullshit. You are extrapolating your experience with an abusive ex and painting any pre-teen boy who isn't in total control of his emotions at all times as a potential abuser.

A kid slammed (and one person's "slam" is another person's "put down forcefully") a glass once because he was frustrated/felt badgered after repeatedly providing a polite response that was being ignored. I've done it myself on occasion, it doesn't make me a monster either.

He didn't know how to appropriately react when questioned in somebody else's house, to someone else's granny when he had nobody there to deflect the attention and questioning when it became too much. Obviously, in an ideal world the OP would have already coached him how to behave in this specific situation, but she hadn't so he resorted to "I said no" which she had taught him, ostensibly for more serious situations, but since he had nothing else in his arsenal he went for that one since "polite rejection" didn't work.

This should not be a situation where the child should be punished for using the only tools he had been taught but rather for education of other strategies that he can use in situations where "No thank you" isn't enough but "I said no!" is too much.

Apologise for shouting/slamming the glass/losing his cool? Definitely.
Apologise for enforcing his boundaries and refusing to allow someone else to overrule his decision purely because they were an adult and he was a child? No way in hell would I ever expect, or want my child to ever apologise for that

Ironic. When I was a child, I didn't really like being a child and wanted to be a grown-up. Perhaps because I was pushed around by six older siblings, a short-tempered twat of a father and a smothering mother who also had difficulty with the 'no' word. There is a photograph of me somewhere in a restaurant with a real bitch face pointing determinedly with my middle finger at my Mum. I was nearly eighteen at the time and she was STILL trying to influence my [food] decisions. Nowadays I don't even like children but I wish them no harm and would cut them more slack than I was ever allowed. Seems like this young man is damned whichever path he chooses. Whoever you are, junior sir, you have my support. Granny can get back in her bucket.

I think it's a bit weird to equate a 10 year old who is being put under pressure away from home with an abusive adult male who commits domestic violence.

We all feel anger. It's a natural, healthy emotion that can have a protective function. Socially it's a tricky one, because you can harm other people so as, most people on this thread have said, growing up is about learning to find appropriate non-harmful ways in which to channel that emotion.

But saying to a younger person who is not being treated with due respect and/or consideration by a group of older people, 'You are not allowed to be angry about this and what is more we are angry that you got angry and I am going to make you say sorry to those other people,' seems to me to be the opposite of good parenting.

Exactly, CremeFresh, which is why some people on this thread are suggesting that the situation is a learning opportunity for the boy and that his parents can give him guidance for future challenging situations. But some people on the thread are defending the behavior itself, suggesting that it was an appropriate response to the situation. The use of physical force is not appropriate in this situation at all. I don't think he should be punished, but he shouldn't be lauded for it either.

Still over-analysing a simple incident that probably happens every fucking day?

He needs to be taught by his parents how to trust and to have confidence that other people will also be trustworthy.

Or maybe the grandmother needs to be taught how to accept no for an answer.

I trust that when my daughter says "No thank you" her decision will be respected and that she can trust people to accept her choice (especially if it is in regards to her body and what she puts in it) If someone refuses to show her that respect then only person in the wrong is the one who is being rude, impolite and untrustworthy.

Clearly this child couldn't trust the granny not to escalate things further ... he had said "no thank you" and each time the situation was escalated and she became more pushy. He only reacted when a sandwich was waved in his face. How was he supposed to know that his next "No thank you" wasn't going to be followed by her trying to shove it in his face or some other consequence? Especially since he was at someone else's house and couldn't just call his mum to help him immediately.

Seneca I agree and I'm not condoning his behaviour at all , the same as lots of children's behaviour can't be condoned (snatching,biting etc) but you just guide them in how to do the right thing.

math the OP (and just about everyone else) has said she's not happy with the glass slamming, so I think we can assume that's going to be addressed. But this isn't a 'habit', she states quite clearly that he has reacted badly in stressful situations about 5 times in his entire life. You really are extrapolating an awful lot.

Would you think a girl should continue to politely said 'no' in the face of a persistent man? I think you are taking the fact that this was a male reacting to a female to an extreme. The power imbalance in this case was in the grandmother's favour - she's an adult in her daughter's home.

This child has been taught that 'no' means 'no'. A good lesson for a male to learn, don't you think? To respect 'no' and to understand the boundary that represents.